RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (Full Version)

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Brain -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/23/2010 7:56:50 PM)

Hi Thadius,

No I don't think jobs going to other countries is because of excessive demands of workers.  I want to see workers receive decent wages so we could have a strong middle-class. 

I think auto manufacturing jobs are going to Canada because Canada has a well educated labor force and because healthcare costs are cheaper in Canada even though everyone is covered.

On top of that Canada has a better healthcare system than the United States.   It's only the wealthy millionaires like Rush Limbaugh who can afford to pay for their own healthcare  who like the American system better. It was really ironic when Rush Limbaugh got sick in Hawaii because Hawaii has a similar system to Canada and Rush Limbaugh didn't know it.

I actually like the Hawaii system because if you're a part-time worker and work I think it's 20 hours a week it makes you eligible for health care coverage.  A lot of part-time workers in Canada don't have any health care because they don't have that law in Canada

I am 100% positive if they pass health-care reform in the United States similar to Canada or to the state of Hawaii you and everyone else, except Republicans, will like it as much a social security.  Trust me, please trust me I wouldn't lie to you, or to RealOne.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Hi Brain,

It's kind of funny that the example you use is the auto industry. If the proposed bills were going to be good for their employees why would there have been any need for the backroom deal on the "cadilac tax" exemptions?

You don't think our current tax structures, regulations, and demands for wages (including benefits) have anything to do with these big companies exporting jobs to other countries?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I don't agree that it's going to cost the exact same amount or more. I don't agree because I will give you this example in the auto industry. Ford Motor Company manufactures cars in Canada and so does General Motors by the way, but they do it because they have cheaper health care costs in Canada. And Canada is using a progressive health care system which costs less and covers everyone.  I would call the Canadian system single-payer because the government pays and uses its negotiating power to bring down costs.
Ford Motor Company has a lot more than 49 employees working at that plant where they make F150s in Oakville. All I know is if they do it right it's going to cost less.  George Bush and Republicans complain about how government doesn't work and then they got elected for eight years and proved it, thank God those days are over. I'm confident if Democrats do this right it will employ a lot of people that need jobs and save a lot of money just like it does everywhere else in the world, Germany, Japan, Canada, Britain and I could go on and on and on. I'm just not buying it that it won't work.
 
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I don't see mandatory in bold anywhere so I don't know what you're talking about.  And like doing nothing is not going to cost anything?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Just one flaw with his argument, and it hinges on the part you bolded.

The proposed MANDATORY costs to employers is at best going to offset the savings that they would realize if the current bills go through. Therefore, there will be no realized cost savings for employers, and it can be argued that it will cost even more to hire new people.

I would also point out that the way the current proposals are structured, it encourages businesses not to have more than 49 employees on the payroll, so there goes the idea of small business growth providing those extra jobs.





I capped mandatory to put emphasis on the fact that the health care proposals in congress and at the white house include mandatory costs to employers. Even under your ideal situation (medical costs come down or are frozen because of the legislation), the mandates to pay for that coverage by an employer will create the exact same thing that is suggested is preventing them from hiring now (additional costs for health care). Now remember this is going to be on average an additional (according to the proposal put out yesterday) $2000 per employee per year, then add in the new taxes required to pay for this and the other spending bills, and tell me how this inspires an employer to expand?







DarkSteven -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/23/2010 8:04:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I don't know why you guys are fighting this, except to say you are brainwashed by ideology just as I was 10 years ago.  I have become pragmatic and I go with what works. Other countries have proven this works because it covers everyone and it costs less. You can think up all the silly reasons you want to say how it won't work. But the evidence is all over the world with other industrialized countries that cover all their citizens with decent health care and it doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, everyone is treated the same. What a lot of people are forgetting is that they are one layoff away and one serious illness away from going bankrupt with health care costs.



I'm not exactly fighting it as much as not trusting that it will go as planned.  Taking things on faith when the government peddles them is not a good idea.




Thadius -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/23/2010 8:25:02 PM)

All I am suggesting is that there are plenty of things that all sides of the aisle can agree on. One of them is included in the system you mention "Hawaii". Hawaii depends a great deal on the COBRA and HIPPA laws, and their exemption to ERISA. Expanding HIPPA would do many of the things that we all want, including: portability from job to job and even during unemployment, and protection for those with "pre-existing" conditions.

I favor using the laws we have on the books, tweaking them if neccessary, instead of creating an entire new agency or three with the added red tape and expense that they will undoubtedly bring with them. I further oppose any thing the government does to try and tighten their grip on our already slipping away freedoms.

It is in this light that I am in opposition to a full take over of that much of our country by a centralized government. We can come up with plenty of common sense answers to these problems if we stop the partisan crap and just listen to each other. This is something you aren't going to hear from the talking heads on the left or on the right, because they make their money off of keeping us divided and arguing over the window dressing.

Hope that clears a few things up.




Brain -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/23/2010 8:40:34 PM)

The european banking system is having problems because it's too similar to the American system.  I hope you remember Canada did much better under its system because in Canada they do not allow banks to be run like casinos.  In fact the Canadian prime minister an economist went to New York to discuss Canadian banking after the financial crisis.

There's a lot wrong with the American health system. It's costing the country too much money. The American healthcare system is the most expensive health care system in the world and it produces mediocre results. Like I said before you're a smart guy and you can find out if you want to yourself. Stop being blinded by ideology. Right-wing and left-wing is not important anymore.  Be pragmatic and do what works. 

What does this mean?
What wrong with the realization of the roots of the problem and NOT turn your care over to the option of the government and go back to freedom of choice at a reasonable price?



Now you want me to explain how the deficit will be reduced.  I did tell you under single payer the government has leverage and since they are paying the bills before they give the money to the insurance company they can say "We want a better price and then you get your money insurance company.  After you give us a better price insurance company/drug company then we will pay your bill."  The government can't talk like that to insurance companies. You and I have no leverage and they will tell us to go suck eggs.

The insurance companies and the Republicans have been saying they will fix these problems for decades. And every single time they had a chance to fix the problems they did not. So it is not acceptable to give them another chance because they had their chance and they blew it.   The American people want healthcare reform now.

Nobody is jumping from the fire to the coals. Health care is better in other countries. Watch this.

Front line healthcare around the world
 
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/view/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

Senate Healthcare Reform Bill Would Reduce Deficit, CBO Says

October 8, 2009 — A heavily amended healthcare reform proposal before the Senate Finance Committee would cost $829 billion, but it would ultimately trim the federal deficit by $81 billion through 2019, according to an analysis released yesterday by the Congressional Budget Office.

An earlier version of the proposal would have cost $774 billion and reduced the deficit by $49 billion.

The $829 billion in outlays in the amended bill would expand coverage under Medicaid and the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP), provide tax credits and subsidies for individuals obtaining coverage through health insurance exchanges, and give tax credits to small employers providing coverage, the CBO report stated. The proposal would recoup these costs, and then some, through revenue from various sources, including $201 billion in taxes on high-premium insurance plans, and $404 billion in spending cuts for Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, and other federal programs.

After 2019, cost savings and added revenues are expected to grow more rapidly than the cost of expanding coverage, which would continue to reduce the federal deficit over the following 10 years, according to the report.
 
Co-ops Would Lack Significant Market Presence in Many Areas
The proposal, which the Senate Finance Committee will vote on this Tuesday, would reduce the number of uninsured in 2019 by 29 million, leaving 25 million nonelderly adults, a third of them unauthorized immigrants, without coverage, according to the CBO report. The analysis seemed to throw cold water on the notion that member-owned "co-op" health plans would provide a robust substitute for a government-sponsored plan, otherwise known as the public option, which other reform bills in Congress call for.

"The proposed co-ops had very little effect on the estimates of total enrollment in the exchanges or federal costs because, as they are described in the specifications, they seem unlikely to establish a significant market presence in many areas of the country or to noticeably affect federal subsidy payments," the CBO report stated.

The report cheered supporters of healthcare reform who need an affordable proposal to win congressional votes as well as the signature of President Obama, who wants a plan that will not add "a dime to the deficit." Peter Orszag, the director of the Office of Management and Budget in the White House, declared in his blog that the legislation "demonstrates that we can expand coverage and improve quality while being fiscally responsible."

In contrast, Sen. Charles Grassley (IA), the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, issued a statement decrying a bill that calls for hundreds of billions of dollars in new taxes and fees, yet still leaves 25 million people without health insurance in 2019. "When people have been laid off or are worried about getting laid off, the idea of new taxes on employers and individuals should concern all of us," Sen. Grassley stated. "I'd like to see Congress insure more Americans with less stress on the weakest economy, including family finances, in decades."
 
Fixing SGR Long-Term Could Put Proposal in the Red
The CBO report noted one potential time bomb involving Medicare reimbursements to physicians that could blow up its projections. The Senate Finance Committee legislation would give physicians a Medicare raise of 0.5% in 2010 and eliminate a scheduled, across-the-board pay cut of 21.5% that is mandated by the Sustainable Growth Rate (SGR) formula. This mechanism sets annual targets for Medicare expenditures on physician services and reduces physician reimbursements the following year if those targets are exceeded, producing a deficit.

Throughout this decade, Medicare expenditures on physician services have regularly been above SGR targets, but Congress has averted scheduled pay cuts in the same way the Senate Finance Committee proposal does. But since the SGR deficit has continued to accumulate, each reprieve has only postponed the pay cut until the following year, and made it bigger in the process. Accordingly, the Senate Finance Committee proposal would translate into a roughly 25% rate decrease in 2011, which is factored into CBO projections.

The agency noted that the long-term budgetary effect of the proposal could be quite different if the 2011 pay cut does not take effect as planned. In contrast, the healthcare reform legislation pending in the House allocates more than $200 billion to erase the SGR deficit from the books — a move that would put the Senate Finance proposal in the red.

If the Senate Finance Committee approves the bill as written, it would have to be merged with a healthcare reform bill passed by the Senate Health, Energy, Labor, and Pensions (HELP) Committee before it comes before the full Senate for a vote.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/710194

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

yeh right and they are all operating in bankruptcy under the european banking system running on broke.

I agree that if you hit a square peg hard enough the corners will slice off and it will go into a round hole therefore it will work.

There was nothing wrong with our healthcare what so ever before big pharma got in and insurance and government.

What wrong with the realization of the roots of the problem and NOT turn your care over to the option of the government and go back to freedom of choice at a reasonable price?

why jump from the fire into the coals (which are hotter btw) just because you can make the claim that is can work when we had a working system that we broke?

and you did not tell me how it lowers the deficit which point I agree with you bit I just want to see how you came to that conclusion.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I don't know why you guys are fighting this, except to say you are brainwashed by ideology just as I was 10 years ago.  I have become pragmatic and I go with what works. Other countries have proven this works because it covers everyone and it costs less. You can think up all the silly reasons you want to say how it won't work. But the evidence is all over the world with other industrialized countries that cover all their citizens with decent health care and it doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, everyone is treated the same. What a lot of people are forgetting is that they are one layoff away and one serious illness away from going bankrupt with health care costs.

Take Dick Cheney for example, that bastard has had five heart attacks as well as 5 deferments.  The son of a bitch had another heart attack recently and of course he is a 'socialist' because he is using government health care, the same healthcare Republicans like him don't want you to have.

I would love to see that slimeball for ideological reasons say that he's not a socialist and he doesn't want 'government health care' and pay for his bloody care himself.  

Unfortunately, Dick Cheney can afford to pay for his own health care but just remember that the average middle-class person who loses their job can't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Do I need ot remind anyone that private deduction would do the same thing and at least offer a teenee bit more control over your care et al?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Do I have to post the link which says passing healthcare with the public option will reduce the budget deficit???

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne




we will send you the bill!













ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/23/2010 8:58:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
It is in this light that I am in opposition to a full take over of that much of our country by a centralized government. We can come up with plenty of common sense answers to these problems if we stop the partisan crap and just listen to each other. This is something you aren't going to hear from the talking heads on the left or on the right, because they make their money off of keeping us divided and arguing over the window dressing.


But is this something you think is likely, or for that matter remotely possible?




Thadius -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/23/2010 9:03:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
It is in this light that I am in opposition to a full take over of that much of our country by a centralized government. We can come up with plenty of common sense answers to these problems if we stop the partisan crap and just listen to each other. This is something you aren't going to hear from the talking heads on the left or on the right, because they make their money off of keeping us divided and arguing over the window dressing.


But is this something you think is likely, or for that matter remotely possible?


It is possible if enough of us think that way. Unfortunately pride, which I am guilty of exhibiting from time to time, prevents many from accepting the notion that we aren't all that different when it comes to certain solutions.

Kind of like Boston and NY fans trying to agree on the best player in a given year, and missing the fact that they both love the game of baseball.




HandSolo -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/23/2010 9:17:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

It was really ironic when Rush Limbaugh got sick in Hawaii because Hawaii has a similar system to Canada and Rush Limbaugh didn't know it.


It was also ironic when Canada's Minister of Health fled to Florida to get surgery becasue he couldn't afford the wait up North.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I am 100% positive if they pass health-care reform in the United States similar to Canada or to the state of Hawaii you and everyone else, except Republicans, will like it as much a social security.  Trust me, please trust me I wouldn't lie to you, or to RealOne.


True. It will be far more expensive than they admit, balloon exponentially, and eventually collapse.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/23/2010 9:59:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

It is possible if enough of us think that way. Unfortunately pride, which I am guilty of exhibiting from time to time, prevents many from accepting the notion that we aren't all that different when it comes to certain solutions.

Kind of like Boston and NY fans trying to agree on the best player in a given year, and missing the fact that they both love the game of baseball.


That's the fundamental difference between our positions, then. It's not possible. There's no reason at all to believe that it is. I'm 52 years old, and for my entire adult life I've been hearing Americans say, "If enough people just stand up and blah  blah blah..." and it has never - ever - amounted to a thing. The only thing that's happened over the last 30 years, and especially the last 20, and even more particularly over the last 10, is that our already-completely fucked up system of government has gotten even more dysfunctional and self-destructive.

I'm sorry, Thadius. I typically have a lot of respect for your opinions, but in this case I can't even come close to agreeing. It's just wishful thinking, no different than saying, "well, if I could only win the lottery, I could get out of debt." This country is fucked, and it's only going to get more fucked in the coming years as the financial damage from the meltdown continues to worsen. I wish it weren't fucked, but that's the reality, and until someone gives me some logical reason to expect it to suddenly become unfucked, I can't see it any differently.




tazzygirl -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/23/2010 10:18:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

A.) Is this 250K to 400K news jobs per year or saved jobs per year to replace the doctors who take up a different line of work after the government nationalizes health care?

B.) You forgot your obligatory reconciliation comment.





First, have any proof that Dr's will leave the profession if a national health care is established?

Is it truly your understanding that Dr's enter said profession strictly for money?

What line of work do you forsee said Drs taking up?

I have heard the comment before, that Drs will leave in droves. Ahem... dont be so sure. some will, many wont. being as Drs are, they would find it difficult to work successfully anywhere else.

Honestly, i would love to read any study or poll that states Drs will leave. I tried finding just one, and i simply cannot.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/23/2010 10:40:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

A.) Is this 250K to 400K news jobs per year or saved jobs per year to replace the doctors who take up a different line of work after the government nationalizes health care?

B.) You forgot your obligatory reconciliation comment.





First, have any proof that Dr's will leave the profession if a national health care is established?

Is it truly your understanding that Dr's enter said profession strictly for money?

What line of work do you forsee said Drs taking up?

I have heard the comment before, that Drs will leave in droves. Ahem... dont be so sure. some will, many wont. being as Drs are, they would find it difficult to work successfully anywhere else.

Honestly, i would love to read any study or poll that states Drs will leave. I tried finding just one, and i simply cannot.


tried real hard, didja?




Brain -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/23/2010 11:07:16 PM)

Tony Clement, who?

"True. It will be far more expensive than they admit, balloon exponentially, and eventually collapse."

You mean like Canada?   Not true, HasNot happened.    More lies from the right to scare people and protect corpoate profits.  

quote:

ORIGINAL: HandSolo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

It was really ironic when Rush Limbaugh got sick in Hawaii because Hawaii has a similar system to Canada and Rush Limbaugh didn't know it.


It was also ironic when Canada's Minister of Health fled to Florida to get surgery becasue he couldn't afford the wait up North.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I am 100% positive if they pass health-care reform in the United States similar to Canada or to the state of Hawaii you and everyone else, except Republicans, will like it as much a social security.  Trust me, please trust me I wouldn't lie to you, or to RealOne.


True. It will be far more expensive than they admit, balloon exponentially, and eventually collapse.





Termyn8or -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/23/2010 11:17:35 PM)

FR, total jumpthrough based on title only.

So now they kill 250,000 and are going to hire 400,000 ? Our troubles is over !

T




Brain -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/23/2010 11:28:04 PM)

I don’t want them practicing medicine, they should resign if they’re only in it for the money.  We don’t need them.  We need to cover the uninsured.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

A.) Is this 250K to 400K news jobs per year or saved jobs per year to replace the doctors who take up a different line of work after the government nationalizes health care?

B.) You forgot your obligatory reconciliation comment.





First, have any proof that Dr's will leave the profession if a national health care is established?

Is it truly your understanding that Dr's enter said profession strictly for money?

What line of work do you forsee said Drs taking up?

I have heard the comment before, that Drs will leave in droves. Ahem... dont be so sure. some will, many wont. being as Drs are, they would find it difficult to work successfully anywhere else.

Honestly, i would love to read any study or poll that states Drs will leave. I tried finding just one, and i simply cannot.


tried real hard, didja?




tazzygirl -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/23/2010 11:32:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

A.) Is this 250K to 400K news jobs per year or saved jobs per year to replace the doctors who take up a different line of work after the government nationalizes health care?

B.) You forgot your obligatory reconciliation comment.





First, have any proof that Dr's will leave the profession if a national health care is established?

Is it truly your understanding that Dr's enter said profession strictly for money?

What line of work do you forsee said Drs taking up?

I have heard the comment before, that Drs will leave in droves. Ahem... dont be so sure. some will, many wont. being as Drs are, they would find it difficult to work successfully anywhere else.

Honestly, i would love to read any study or poll that states Drs will leave. I tried finding just one, and i simply cannot.


tried real hard, didja?


~smiles

thank you

Physicians are important players in the health care debate. They've been courted by both supporters and opponents of the Democratic reform plan. President Barack Obama held a Rose Garden ceremony with some of them recently. And now opponents of the Democratic health care plan are citing poll results that supposedly show that lots of doctors would be so unhappy with the reforms that they'd quit their jobs.

Fox News Channel political commentator Glenn Beck mentioned this on his Oct. 12, 2009, show during a wide-ranging critique of the Democratic plan. He said that the plan could harm doctors financially and make medical students have doubts about pursuing the profession. "Do you really think that you're going to see an increase in medical students? I don't think so," Beck said. "Especially consider that the percentage of doctors who say they'll quit if this is passed is only 45 percent. No worries. Ha! You'll be able to find a good doctor. Really, you will."

If true, the sudden departure of 45 percent of the nation's doctors would indeed constitute a stinging rejection of the Democratic effort by an influential health care constituency. But that number sounded high to us, so we decided to look into the statistic's origins.

It came from a survey of "practicing physicians" published in mid September. The survey was sponsored by the newspaper Investor's Business Daily and was done by the firm TechnoMetrica Institute of Policy and Politics, or TIPP. The survey was conducted between Aug. 28, 2009, and Sept. 15, 2009. It was mailed to 25,600 physicians nationwide at addresses purchased from a list broker.

We found several problems with the poll and the way Beck described its results:

— Beck misstated what the poll asked . Beck said that 45 percent of doctors will quit. But in fact, the poll found that 45 percent of doctors said they will consider quitting. Considering quitting isn't the same thing as quitting, which makes Beck's statement a significant exaggeration.

In addition, the specific question asked of respondents was, "If Congress passes their health care plan, will you ... continue your practice, [or] consider leaving your practice or taking an early retirement?" This wording leaves open the possibility that respondents are saying they might simply leave their current practice to join another practice, rather than quit.

— The poll had a low response rate . According to the statistics published in IBD , 1,376 practicing physicians responded to the poll, out of the 25,600 solicited nationally. That's a 5.4 percent response rate. In one of its articles about the poll, IBD bills this as "a high rate of return, considering how difficult doctors are to get hold of." But another survey of doctors released around the same time managed to do better — much better.

That other survey was conducted by Salomeh Keyhani and Alex Federman, internists and researchers at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City, who published the results in the New England Journal of Medicine . They mailed 5,157 questionnaires and got a response rate that exceeded 43 percent — nearly eight times the IBD survey's rate. In fact, Keyhani and Federman reached almost 50 percent more doctors despite sending out only one-fifth the number of inquiries. (They did not ask doctors if they would consider quitting as the other poll did.)

Does a higher response rate matter? In this case, it's hard to know for sure, said Karlyn Bowman, a polling analyst with the conservative American Enterprise Institute. However, she added, "higher response rates give me more confidence in results," a point echoed by other experts we interviewed.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/oct/15/glenn-beck/beck-says-45-percent-physicians-would-quit-if-heal/

Of course there is far more... i do hope you will read. Sometimes more than one source is a good thing to check. I do not believe Drs will fly out the doors of their offices, hospitals and labs to do other work because this country decided to get in line on health care reform. Many drs in 2008 were thinking of leaving the profession because they were spending more time with paperwork than patients, and complaining of billing problems.





willbeurdaddy -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/23/2010 11:44:02 PM)

I was responding to your claim that you couldnt find ANY.

I dont think there will be a mass exodus either. But what there certainly will be is far fewer new doctors. The time and expense of obtaining an MD will no longer be justified. Same result, it will just take a little longer.

Short ignore, eh?




tazzygirl -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/23/2010 11:48:36 PM)

Personally, NPs would be the way to go if Drs did leave pratice. But they wont. Most have far too many mortgages, kids in prep school or college, fancy cars and expensive practices.




Termyn8or -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/24/2010 12:20:53 AM)

I dunno taz. If they told me I would have to take a mahjor pay cut I would be out the door looking to do something else.

Also, a US doctor can make a hell of alot of money in foreign countries, which will clear the mailroom over at the IRS quite effectively.

Just another shot in the foot the way I see it.

T




Brain -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/24/2010 1:29:26 AM)

THIS IS FOR ALL OF YOU WISENHEIMERS“WHO KNOW EVERYTHING” ABOUT HEALTHCARE REFORM:

1.   
Canadians live longer than ever; highest life expectancy in B.C., StatsCan says
 
AND

2.
Canadians healthier than Americans, study      says
 
AND
 
3.
An inconvenient truth for the GOP: Canada's system is better
 
 
 

1.

Tue Feb. 23 2010 8:43:15 AM
 
Canadians live longer than ever; highest life expectancy in B.C., StatsCan says
The Canadian Press

OTTAWA — A new study says Canadians are living longer than ever.
The Statistics Canada study says life expectancy at birth reached 80.7 years for the three-year period between 2005 and 2007.

That's up from the average of 80.5 between 2004 and 2006, and 78.4 a decade earlier.

Gains during the past decade were strongest among men, although women still live the longest.

Men's life expectancy at birth rose 2.9 years to 78.3 in 2005-2007, while among women it increased by 1.8 years to 83.

Provincially, life expectancy at birth in British Columbia was 81.2 years in 2005-2007, highest among the provinces, followed by Ontario at 81 years.

Life expectancy at birth in Quebec was at the national average, while it was below the national average in the rest of the provinces.

The lowest life expectancy was in the three territories combined, at 75.8 years.

Deaths recorded their largest increase since 1993, continuing a long-term upward trend resulting from a growing and aging population.

In 2007, 235,217 people died in Canada, up 7,138 -- or 3.1 per cent -- from 2006.

Both male and female deaths rose, but the increase was slightly larger among women, 3.2 per cent compared with 3.1 for men.

The infant mortality rate rose to 5.1 infant deaths per 1,000 live births in 2007 from five in 2006.

http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100223/100223_life_expectancy/20100223/?hub=CP24Home
 



2.
Canadians healthier than Americans, study says


CTV.ca News Staff
Date: Tue. May. 30 2006 11:31 PM ET

Canadians are healthier and have better access to health care than U.S. residents. And, according to a new study, Canadians obtain better care for half of what Americans spend on their medical system.

"The data is clear and really irrefutable: Canadians are healthier than Americans and they have better access to medical care," Dr. Steffy Woolhandler of the Harvard Medical School said Tuesday. She added that medical care is easier to access for Canadians.

The study, published in the American Journal of Public Health, was conducted by Harvard Medical School researchers. They also found that:


Canadians were seven per cent more likely to have a regular doctor
Canadians were 19 per cent less likely than Americans to have their health needs go unmet.
Americans were more than twice as likely to forgo needed medicines because of cost.

Discrepancies in health care become even wider when taking into account income, age, sex, race and immigrant status. In those kind of detailed comparisons, Canadians were 33 per cent more likely to have a regular doctor and 27 per cent less likely to have an unmet health need.

Meanwhile, Americans had higher rates of nearly every serious chronic disease, including obesity, diabetes and chronic lung disease, even though U.S. residents were less likely to be smokers.

"We pay almost twice what Canada does for care, more than $6,000 for every American, yet Canadians are healthier, and live two to three years longer," said Dr. David Himmelstein, an associate professor at Harvard and study co-author.

This first-ever cross-national health survey analyzed data from the Joint Canada/U.S. Survey of Health, with data collected by Statistics Canada and the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics.

It follows a similar study released earlier this month that found white, middle-aged Americans were less healthy than their British counterparts, who spent half as much on health care.

In the latest study, the researchers suggest the biggest barrier to health care in the United States is cost.

More than seven times as many U.S. residents reported going without needed care due to cost, compared to Canadians.

Uninsured U.S. residents were particularly vulnerable, with 30.4 per cent having an unmet health need due to cost, the study reported.
 
Wait times not a factor in study
CTV's Avis Favaro said the study found Canadians wait, on average, three times more than Americans for medical treatment.

"But when you look at the actual number, it was a little over three per cent waiting for medical treatment, which is a tiny proportion when you look at the big picture, although doctors and patients might disagree with that," she said.

Lead author Dr. Karen Lasser said that, while Canada gets negative press about long wait times for medical procedures, the health system seems to work better.

"No one ever talks about the fact that low-income and minority patients fare better in Canada," said Lasser, a primary care doctor at Cambridge Health Alliance and an instructor at Harvard Medical School. "Based on our findings, if I had to choose between the two systems for my patients, I would choose the Canadian system hands down."

Dr. Raisa Deber of the University of Toronto said the message of the study is that "the sky is not falling."

"The take-home message is: When you compare Canada to the United States, Canada is spending a lot less money to get better results," said Deber, who specializes in health policy, management and evaluation.

"There are small improvement in places that could be fixed and could be made better. But on average the system is working quite well."

The one problem noted in the study: About 21 per cent of Canadian women were not receiving recommended cervical cancer screening.

"However, death rates from cervical cancer have long been lower in Canada than in the United States, presumably reflecting past screening practices and population risk factors," the study said.

The Joint Canada/U.S. Survey of Health surveyed 3,505 Canadians and 5,183 U.S. residents between November 2002 and March 2003.
 
The study will be published in the July 2006 issue of the American Journal of Public Health
 
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/an/story/CTVNews/20060530/canada_us_healthcare_060530



3.
An inconvenient truth for the GOP: Canada's system is better


Republicans want to ensure no public option creeps into the American system

Eugene Lang and Philip DeMont
From Monday's Globe and Mail Published on Friday, Sep. 11, 2009 5:48PM EDT Last updated on Tuesday, Sep. 15, 2009 2:57AM EDT

It is rare for Canada to get noticed in the United States. In fact, it is almost unprecedented for anything Canadian to be the focal point of debate in Washington. Yet we have seen just that in recent months during the congressional wrangling over U.S. President Barack Obama's attempts to reform health insurance.

Canada's medicare system has suddenly been thrust into the spotlight south of the border. It has been pilloried by the Republicans in Congress, the subject of derisive and distorted television advertisements, described variously as a system of medicine by bureaucrat, a statist form of health care afflicted by gross inequities and inefficiencies, one that pales in comparison to the U.S. model. The hysterical tone of the anti-medicare rhetoric among Republicans would make one think Canada is North Korea.
 
But there is an inconvenient truth that the Republican ideology cannot dispute. Canada's approach to providing citizens with universal health insurance is superior to the U.S. model of private insurance. When we get beyond the anti-medicare ideology and histrionics on Capitol Hill, we can establish this by reference to four basic numbers that give a good sense of our system versus the system in the United States.
 
Life expectancy is a basic measure of the quality of health care. In the U.S., a citizen will live 77.8 years on average. In Canada, you can expect to live two and a half years longer (80.4 years). Infant mortality is also a vital indicator of health care. In the United States, 6.37 infants die out of every 1,000. In Canada the number is 5.4 out of a 1,000.
 
But what a[image]http://www.collarchat.com/rteimages/centre.gif[/image]bout the cost differences of the two approaches to health care? Surely our Leviathan-like system, which produces such enviable results, must cost a fortune relative to the U.S. model.
 
The best measure of health care costs is the percentage a country spends relative to the size of its economy, or its gross domestic product (GDP). Canadians spend about 10 per cent of GDP on health. Americans spend 16 per cent to achieve inferior results on life expectancy and infant mortality.
 
Finally, it is estimated that there are somewhere around 40 million Americans – about 12 per cent of their population, well in excess of the total population of Canada – who have no medical insurance whatsoever. These unfortunate people are literally on their own in paying for any and all medical treatments they require. That gap in coverage is staggering, making the United States an outlier among all advanced Western nations.
 
One might ask how many uninsured citizens exist in Canada? The answer is zero – all Canadians are insured. In this country, good-quality, universally accessible medical care is regarded as a basic element of citizenship, kind of like owning a gun is in the U.S.
 
So to sum up. We live longer than the Americans do. We are less likely to die at or soon after birth than the Americans are. All Canadians have medical insurance, whereas a huge number of Americans don't. And we pay less as a society for health care than they do in the United States. Four numbers paint a stark picture. And when you strip away the anti-medicare ideological rants and falsehoods on display in Washington, Canada's approach to health insurance would probably sound pretty good to many Americans.
 
To their credit, by putting public insurance on the table as a supplement to private plans, the Democrats in the U.S. Congress are trying to drag the United States into the club of civilized nations when it comes to health care. We've been in that club since the establishment of medicare more than 40 years ago.

Don't get us wrong here. We are not saying medicare is perfect; it is far from that, and it requires constant improvement, as most Canadians understand. But it is not a bad deal for citizens of this country.
 
The Republican-led anti-medicare lobby in Congress knows these numbers and facts. But they are regarded as inconvenient truths that must be ignored in the crusade to discredit the Canadian approach to health insurance, to ensure no public option creeps into the U.S. system. Anti-government ideology is running amok in Washington, trumping facts and rational debate, distorting one of the most important public policy issues the United States has grappled with in decades.
Ultimately, the U.S. public will pay the price for that.
 
Eugene Lang is a former senior economist at Finance Canada. Philip DeMont served as a senior policy adviser to Ontario's health minister.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/an-inconvenient-truth-for-the-gop-canadas-system-is-better/article1284869/




quote:

ORIGINAL: HandSolo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

It was really ironic when Rush Limbaugh got sick in Hawaii because Hawaii has a similar system to Canada and Rush Limbaugh didn't know it.


It was also ironic when Canada's Minister of Health fled to Florida to get surgery becasue he couldn't afford the wait up North.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I am 100% positive if they pass health-care reform in the United States similar to Canada or to the state of Hawaii you and everyone else, except Republicans, will like it as much a social security.  Trust me, please trust me I wouldn't lie to you, or to RealOne.


True. It will be far more expensive than they admit, balloon exponentially, and eventually collapse.





tazzygirl -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/24/2010 7:54:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I dunno taz. If they told me I would have to take a mahjor pay cut I would be out the door looking to do something else.

Also, a US doctor can make a hell of alot of money in foreign countries, which will clear the mailroom over at the IRS quite effectively.

Just another shot in the foot the way I see it.

T


Then explain how the Mayo Clinic keeps them. Its not always about the money, but i highly doubt their income will drop to burger-flipping levels. Nor do i believe 45% will fly away. Some will retire.. some will move to other professions... some to other countries... while others come here... new students enroll each year... and nurse practitioners are stepping up to fill in the void.

This is yet again another step to instill fear of the unknown into the general public.




mnottertail -> RE: Health Care Reform Could Boost Employment by 250,000 to 400,000 a Year this Decade (2/24/2010 7:58:10 AM)

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doctors-in-other-countries-make/

yes, more premises based on false assumptions that conclude doctors will flee the country.





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