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RE: Quebec - 2/27/2010 12:50:08 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
For the record, though I am not a seperatist ...


For the record, I am a seperatist.

I'm tired of seeing my country black-mailed by free-loaders spending my tax dollars.

Quebec has contributed absolutely nothing but animosity to Canada for the past 40 years.

Screw 'em.

For the record, you are a woefully misinformed fool. Quebec is an essential part of Canada, without Quebec we wouldn't even exist as a country. In an earlier post I touched on a few of the more obvious problems that would ensue from Quebec's separation. On the flip side Quebec could not prosper on its own without the rest of Canada...something the Quebecois have themselves recognized on 2 separate occasions. Personally I am all for bilingualism, in fact I live in a francophone neighbourhood and like it. The francophone culture enriches Canada enormously...the better part of what makes us different from the US is in fact the substantial French population...in Quebec, New Brunswick, Ontario and Manitoba.






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RE: Quebec - 2/27/2010 2:11:54 AM   
mcbride


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Hmm....a fédéraliste Québécoise Domme. How's Tuesday? *g*

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

Lady Angelika, if I take you on a tour of pubs in the west of Ireland, will You take me on a microbrew, deli, and poutine tour?  *tries the boyish smile*



Throw in airfare, accomdation and a shoe shopping trip and you've got yourself a deal! ;-)

- LA


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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Québec - 2/27/2010 4:22:36 AM   
BLoved


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Oh my. You have been living in a bubble, haven't you!

Tell you what, read here for just a little incling on what Québec has contributedL http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3088031

And if after that you still want to seperate, you can step up on this here ice float...


Forgive me for skipping the chat thread but I was looking at the following:

Wiki: Canadian Equalization Payments

Wiki: Canadian Transfer Payments

So let's see, Quebec is constantly complaining about how oppressed they are in Canada, refuses to sign the Constitution and join the country, and meanwhile controls a quarter of the seats in parliament, accepts over 8 billion in equalization payments. More billions for transfer payments, more billions for federal employees, federal benefit programs ...

I don't really care what's on your list. Quebec should be cast adrift, all money stopped, all residents stripped of their Canadian citizenship, all federal government employees fired, all benefits stopped.

Quebec wants to sit on the fence about whether it wants to be a part of Canada or not ... let's see how the Quebec government manages that: massive unemployment coupled with massive poverty.

Welcome to the 21st century, Quebec. You're just too much of a dead weight.

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Quebec - 2/27/2010 4:32:57 AM   
BLoved


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
For the record, though I am not a seperatist ...


For the record, I am a seperatist.

I'm tired of seeing my country black-mailed by free-loaders spending my tax dollars.

Quebec has contributed absolutely nothing but animosity to Canada for the past 40 years.

Screw 'em.

For the record, you are a woefully misinformed fool. Quebec is an essential part of Canada, without Quebec we wouldn't even exist as a country. In an earlier post I touched on a few of the more obvious problems that would ensue from Quebec's separation. On the flip side Quebec could not prosper on its own without the rest of Canada...something the Quebecois have themselves recognized on 2 separate occasions. Personally I am all for bilingualism, in fact I live in a francophone neighbourhood and like it. The francophone culture enriches Canada enormously...the better part of what makes us different from the US is in fact the substantial French population...in Quebec, New Brunswick, Ontario and Manitoba.


I am aware of all of this, yet Quebec is not a part of Canada ... they refuse to sign the constitution.

Just how many billions in bribes are we to pay these blackmailers who refuse to join the country?

Just how long is this situation to be allowed to deteriorate? Exactly what reason does Quebec have to sign the constitution when they get so much sitting on the fence?


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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Québec - 2/27/2010 5:44:57 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Oh my. You have been living in a bubble, haven't you!

Tell you what, read here for just a little incling on what Québec has contributedL http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3088031

And if after that you still want to seperate, you can step up on this here ice float...


Forgive me for skipping the chat thread but I was looking at the following:

Wiki: Canadian Equalization Payments

Wiki: Canadian Transfer Payments

So let's see, Quebec is constantly complaining about how oppressed they are in Canada, refuses to sign the Constitution and join the country, and meanwhile controls a quarter of the seats in parliament, accepts over 8 billion in equalization payments. More billions for transfer payments, more billions for federal employees, federal benefit programs ...

I don't really care what's on your list. Quebec should be cast adrift, all money stopped, all residents stripped of their Canadian citizenship, all federal government employees fired, all benefits stopped.

Quebec wants to sit on the fence about whether it wants to be a part of Canada or not ... let's see how the Quebec government manages that: massive unemployment coupled with massive poverty.

Welcome to the 21st century, Quebec. You're just too much of a dead weight.


So just a page or two back in this thread you were saying this:

quote:

I agree, we have differing views on the subject. I also disagree with those english-speaking Canadians who want to discard Quebec, and there are quite a few who blame Quebec for Canada's economic troubles.


And now you want to just cut us off? Please, take a position, any position and stick with it. But be careful, your misinformed, petulent child is showing.

The vast majority of us Quebecers don't want to separate. We are smart enough to know that Quebec isn't strong enough to survive on its own. Which is why we voted agains separation in those referendums. Get that through your thick scull. That you would screw us along with those in the Maritimes who wouldn't survive without Quebec, and no I'm not taking the smug "they need us they really need us" position, just shows how you are talking out your ass.

We're too much of a dead weight? How do you figure you would do without Quebec Hydro to give an example.

You have shown time and time again how you don't really know a whole fucking lot about Quebec but on the whole show you know shit. Yet you keep talking as though you are an expert. What a moron!


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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Québec - 2/27/2010 6:10:18 AM   
BLoved


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
I don't really care what's on your list. Quebec should be cast adrift, all money stopped, all residents stripped of their Canadian citizenship, all federal government employees fired, all benefits stopped.

Quebec wants to sit on the fence about whether it wants to be a part of Canada or not ... let's see how the Quebec government manages that: massive unemployment coupled with massive poverty.

Welcome to the 21st century, Quebec. You're just too much of a dead weight.


So just a page or two back in this thread you were saying this:

quote:

I agree, we have differing views on the subject. I also disagree with those english-speaking Canadians who want to discard Quebec, and there are quite a few who blame Quebec for Canada's economic troubles.


I was reading LA's response to an earlier post where she was explaining why Quebec won't sign the constitution, and it is as a result of those statements that I came to my current position.

I realized Quebec has absolutely no reason to sign the constitution, and is quite willing to continue sponging off the rest of the country.

Meanwhile, anything doesn't go their way and they can threaten to seperate .... again.

I don't know why I didn't realize this earlier, but we are trying to appease Quebec, and as we all know, appeasement doesn't work.

It just emboldens the black-mailer.

Why shouldn't Ontario do the same? Threaten to cut off the flow of money to the rest of Canada if we don't get everything we want? It works for Quebec and they're not putting as much money into the pot as they are getting out of it.

So why not us?

And Alberta can threaten to cut off the flow of oil revenue if they don't get everything they want.

And the west coast and the east coast can threatne to cut off the use of their ports ...

And on and on until we have what left?

Nothing.

This is the example Quebec sets for the rest of Canada.

Time for a different strategy.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Québec - 2/27/2010 6:35:54 AM   
Lucylastic


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I have never been to Quebec, however my daughter is a frequent visitor( she is in montreal this weekend)  and is considering moving there, she loves it. I havent been out of ontario since I got here, but now the kids are grown, its time to discover:)
I do know tho that altho I do not understand the finer points of many things, the Canada I want to live in includes Quebec.



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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Québec - 2/27/2010 6:39:22 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


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I would love to show you around, Lucy, this really is an awesome city! 

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RE: Quebec - 2/27/2010 8:29:42 AM   
susie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Québec Maple Syrup Rules!! We put it on EVERYTHING. ;-)

- LA


The first time I went to our company "maple syrup festival" I couldn't believe what people were eating it with. Best bit for me was snow covered in maple syrup.
I was lucky enough to meet a wonderful man from Lachine and came very close to moving there, however the relationship could not withstand my constant travelling and being away for 4 - 6 months at a time. I still wonder what it would have been liked if I had settled down there.

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Quebec - 2/27/2010 9:28:46 AM   
Arpig


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quote:


I am aware of all of this, yet Quebec is not a part of Canada ... they refuse to sign the constitution.
God you are dense, Quebec doesn't need to sign any constitution...the Constitution isn't like the US one with many flourishing signatures. Our Constitution is in fact an act of Parliament, or rather two such acts; one by ours and one by the British Parliament. Both were signed by the Queen, and thus became law. No province signed the Constitution, got that...no Province, not Quebec, not Ontario, not any of them.

What you are confused about is the deal between the Federal Gvt and the Provincial Gvts that led to the passage of said acts. In this particular case, the PQ Gvt of the day was indeed not party to the deal, but their agreement was not needed. And once the deal was  done no consent or agreement by the provinces was needed.

In fact the deal that was struck was specifically on an amending formula...what the rules on making changes to the Act in the future would be, and even that was not required; the feds could have passed the act any time they wanted to with any amending rule they wanted without any input from the provinces whatsoever. The reason that Quebec has never agreed to the deal is because such agreement is irrelevant, the deal was made and the Constitution Act passed, and that deal has no more purpose, agreeing to it would be pointless as the deal itself is now meaningless...it was a backroom deal between then Minister of Justice Chretien and various Premiers. Such agreement was NOT required to repatriate or amend the Constitution, as our Constitution at that time was an act of the British Parliament, and only the British Parliament could make such amendments.

Today we have a complicated amending formula that depends on what the amendment is pertaining too, but the general formula it an act of Parliament approved by 7 or more Provinces representing at least 50% of the population, however an amendment that affects the powers of the provincial governments as a whole requires approval by all provinces, and one that only affects the powers of one province (or a few) only requires the approval of the affected province(s).

Please learn the facts before you spout off nonsense, Quebec is just as much part of Canada as any of the other 9 so just accept it. It is not Quebecers, it is bigots like you that are not wanted in Canada.

ETA: I don't like maple syrup, so I will stay out of that debate


< Message edited by Arpig -- 2/27/2010 9:31:46 AM >


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RE: Quebec - 2/27/2010 9:46:06 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ETA: I don't like maple syrup, so I will stay out of that debate


Try New York maple syrup. I've been known to just eat it from the jug by the tablespoon...

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RE: Quebec - 2/27/2010 9:47:15 AM   
Arpig


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I don't like the flavour of maple anything.

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Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!


Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Quebec - 2/27/2010 10:01:29 AM   
Musicmystery


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It's OK. We've got apples too...

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RE: Quebec - 2/27/2010 11:40:11 AM   
Arpig


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I love Granny Smith apples...but I don't think those are the variety grown in NY...pity, they might be cheaper if they were.

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Québec - 2/27/2010 3:51:14 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
I was reading LA's response to an earlier post where she was explaining why Quebec won't sign the constitution, and it is as a result of those statements that I came to my current position.

I realized Quebec has absolutely no reason to sign the constitution, and is quite willing to continue sponging off the rest of the country.

Firstly, we need to look at the history to understand why Québec resists signing the Constitution. As I'm sure you know your Canadian History, for the benefit of most of our non-Canadian readers, let me summarize. Of course this summation will be tainted with my perspective of a French Canadian and over-simplified, but many of the facts that I will present will definitely shed light on the issue.

The Constitution is a whole other story. The constitutional history of Canada begins in 1763 where France is obliged to turn over New France to the Brits under the Treaty of Paris which put the end to a 7 year war on the Plains of Abraham. There was an exodus of many of the French (e.g.: to Louisiana).

The initial Canadian Constitutional Act of 1791 was not written in Canada, but in London, England, under British Rule. The British found many ways to try to assimilate the French Canadians for Centuries to come. In fact, Lord Durham, who was praised for introducing responsible government to Canada, was not so popular for including in his 1839 report a plan to speed up the extinction of the Francophone population into a homogenized Anglophone population via assimilation.

Of course, following the British North America Act 1867, Québec was one of the 4 provinces along with Ontario, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick to enter into a Confederation on July 1, 1867 in response to threats of American annexation as well as to reduce governance costs. That is what is at the core of the Federal Dominion of Canada. Later, other provinces and territories joined up until the inclusion of Nunavut in 1999. THIS to me is the foundation of Canada and the foundation of our political process. THIS permits provinces to operate in a decentralized fashion all the while supporting one another. Is it perfect, no. I have seen very few alternatives that work better. Then again, I do not major in political science and would be willing to look at alternative models.

However, there was a push for the Constitution, like some kind of magical bond that would make everything better. The Constitution, a project started out of British/Anglo domination, a bitter pill the Francos were expected to swallow.

But the Domination of the Anglos over the Francos continued. We've already discussed all the laws but in place to ensure the slow death of Franco-Ontariens. Their culture was on life support for a while but they are a resilient bunch and it is getting better, though far from strong enough to survive on their own.

But the biggest evidence of a realization of this domination was in the 1960s during the Quiet Revolution in Québec in the 1960s. The slogan of the day was Maître chez nous (Masters in our own home) was a movement to redefine the balance of power between the vastly working-class Francophone Québécois and the majority Anglophone business and property owners. Québécois men like Joseph-Armand Bombardier are heroes to us because the hegemonic systems in place made it virtually impossible for the Francophones to get ahead. In addition, this movement brought forth secularized government institutions, nationalized electricity production with Hydro-Québec and an increase in labour unions.

Realizing that history was not going to change unless they took action, the Québécois elected the Parti-Québécois who orchestrated the 1980 Referendum on Sovereignty-Association with the intention of negotiating new terms of association with the rest of Canada. There was a 84% voter turn-out and 60% voted against sovereignty. It is my belief that at that time, the great mistake was to include the word sovereignty. Of course, the political situation was so very unstable and French idiots like Charles de Gaulle had to come and stick their nose in here, suggesting we should be a sovereign state with such asinine statements such as Vive le Québec libre!

So 2 years later, when the dust barely had the time to settle, our beloved Prime Minister Pierre Elliot Trudeau, who I actually look up to for many reasons, brought forth the Canadian Constitution in the form of the Canada Act 1982 which established the new Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, but still signed by the Queen! So as much as I love the guy, who incidentally was a Québécois, this initiative could go 2 ways: it could either bring the defeated Québec into the loop or alienate even more. At the time, the Trudeau's Liberal party of Canada held 74/75 federal seats in Québec - he might have had a chance. Well, option 2 happened, it back fired and I'm not surprised. René Levesque, then Premier of Québec and he were not the best of buddies. It was up to the Parti-Québécois to sign and they weren't about to show such defeat, not after 300 years of the Québécois signing treaties in defeat giving up their rights to Anglo and British rule, especially not at the hands of Trudeau, who I'm sure he considered a traitor. I guess Levesque didn't like being sodomized ;-)

So 1089, new leaders were in place. Canadian Conservative Party Leader and Prime Minister Brian Mulroney and Québec Liberal Party Leader and Premier Robert Bourassa got together with the rest of the Canadian Premiers for the Meech Lake Accord in hoping that they could finally come to some kind of an agreement. Now Québec did not have separatists at the helm. They had voted in the Provincial Liberal party. The failure of this accord rests not in the hands of Québec but in the hands of Manitoba and Newfoundland.

And as a result, on of Prime Minister Brian Mulroney's long standing friends, Lucien Bouchard and several others decided to form Le Bloc Québécois in order to defend Québec's interest in the Canadian parliament. Their feeling was that if they were obliged to be there, they would do so with their own  interests. While I completely understand their motivations, this was in my mind a move that further put oil on the fire.

But in the 1993 Federal elections, the Bloc Québécois became the leader of the official opposition in the Canadian House of Commons which gave the Provincial Parti-Québécois under the lead of the Jacques Parizeau the feeling that he could be the great leader to liberate his province. And he almost won. A referendum held in Quebec on October 30, 1995 resulted in a narrow 50.56%-to-49.44% decision against Quebec sovereignty, with a 93% voter turnout. And this day I remember well. I remember being huddled with a bunch of friends in a bar on St-Laurent Street, the main street dividing the French side from the English side of Montreal, signing Oh Canada patriotically, both in French and in English.

We knew Canada did not want us to leave. We tried to convince the other indoctrinated Québécois. In fact, Canada showed us. A rally celebrating a united Canada was organized three days before the referendum vote. On October 27, 1995, an estimated 100,000 Canadians from all provinces of Canada were gathered at the Place du Canada in Montréal for what was called the "Unity Rally".  Oddly enough, walking home from the Unity Rally, I ran into former Prime Minister Pierre Elliot Trudeau on a small side street (one of the many things I loved about Trudeau is after office, he roamed the streets of Montreal like a regular citizen. Mulroney does as well.) I was in awe and thanked him for all he had done to keep Canada together. He smiled at us and told us to take care of our country.

Of course, the day after the referendum, the xenophobic and alcoholic Jacques Parizeau resigned as the leader of the Parti Québécois, partly because of the controversy caused by his remarks blaming the sovereignist defeat in the referendum on "money and the ethnic vote."

Things have been tense ever since.

quote:

Meanwhile, anything doesn't go their way and they can threaten to separate... again.
Not quite. Parizeau pretty much put the nail in the coffin for the separatist movement. He was his movement's own worst enemy.

A few weeks ago, Lucien Bouchard, who served both as the Bloc Québécois party leader and Leader of Opposition in the Canadian House of Commons from 1993 to 1996, and the 27th Premier of Quebec from 1996 to 2001 to try to clean up Parizeau's mess, spoke out against his former party. A front-page headline in Le Devoir last week read: "Sovereignty Is No Longer Achievable, Bouchard Says." He affirmed that only is independence on the shelf but it's not even something the Québécois should focus on for now. He stated that the Parti-Québécois has become "increasingly radical" toward minorities (obviously that was a stab at Parizeau) and is ignoring important issues like education and reducing public debt. This of course is stirring up shit like nobody's business here.
quote:

I don't know why I didn't realize this earlier, but we are trying to appease Quebec, and as we all know, appeasement doesn't work.

It just emboldens the black-mailer.
Yeah ok, scroll up. Maybe I was wrong about you knowing your Canadian History well.
quote:

Why shouldn't Ontario do the same? Threaten to cut off the flow of money to the rest of Canada if we don't get everything we want? It works for Quebec and they're not putting as much money into the pot as they are getting out of it.

So why not us?

And Alberta can threaten to cut off the flow of oil revenue if they don't get everything they want.

And the west coast and the east coast can threatne to cut off the use of their ports ...

And on and on until we have what left?

Nothing.
Québec isn't the only province that has considered separatism.

http://www.separationalberta.com/
quote:

This is the example Quebec sets for the rest of Canada.
That one was easy.

quote:

Time for a different strategy.
On this, we agree.

- LA

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Québec - 3/2/2010 12:38:37 PM   
ElanSubdued


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LA,

quote:

Québec isn't the only province that has considered separatism.
http://www.separationalberta.com


Indeed.  And the "guy" from that *same province*, who once espoused similar ideas, now runs the entire country.  Go figure. :-)

Side note:  for the non-Canadians in the crowd, I'm speaking of Prime Minister of Canada, Stephen Harper.

E.

< Message edited by ElanSubdued -- 3/2/2010 12:42:31 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Québec - 3/2/2010 7:41:42 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued

LA,

quote:

Québec isn't the only province that has considered separatism.
http://www.separationalberta.com


Indeed.  And the "guy" from that *same province*, who once espoused similar ideas, now runs the entire country.  Go figure. :-)

Side note:  for the non-Canadians in the crowd, I'm speaking of Prime Minister of Canada, Stephen Harper.

E.


Oh. My. Gosh. I had no clue. The guy who looks like a gay cowboy?



- LA


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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Quebec - 3/2/2010 11:12:55 PM   
Brain


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They aren’t going anywhere but Harper has to go, pronto.

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Profile   Post #: 78
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