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ORIGINAL: frazzle

i give people, the benefit of the doubt. i still have this strange concept that people are honest.

yes i live in a mental institute [:D]

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ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

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ORIGINAL: sleepingbeauty2
I'm not saying the dynamic can't be learned. But I am not a Dom or Master. I can't teach that, as it is not a process I have undergone. Maybe I can teach how to interact with a sub to get the response that is desired. The whole dynamic is a learning processes between the two individuals. But there aspects to being a Master that just can't be taught or explained from a sub. Maybe a new Master/Dom can intiutively figure it out and as I said, through trial and error and of course it is an ongoing process.

Teaching someone to flog, what collars commonly mean to those in the lifestyle, how people commonly define this or that, etc is not teaching someone how to be a dominant. I don't think that can be taught either. I also don't think someone can teach themselves how to be dominant or submissive. They either are or they aren't however much they may need assistence in realizing it.

Quite frankly, I don't think the dynamic can be "taught" in this context. Sure, you can teach someone about it in terms of teaching someone about a subculture of sexuality, but you can't teach the enjoyment either of it. Either a person finds joy in having that dynamic or they don't. And if they do and they just don't know the easy part - how to weild a whip or the various protocals and ways things can be done... I still don't see how it's topping from the bottom or threatening the dynamic to teach those things.

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I think it's a combination of what is inherently part of the person, and what CAN be learned. I don't have the part that is within a dominant and I can't teach that and I don't want to think my Master is deficient in that respect that he needs ME to teach it to him. Could I occasionally point out that I have maybe not listened to him well, and maybe could use some correction? Maybe once or twice. Any more than that would simply be frustrating to me and turn me off to the situatuion. I want to learn from my Master, and while I'm willing to let his learning process unfold, I don't want to spend my whole time being a teacher. I need to perceive him as strong and knowledgeable, or at least smart enough to learn quickly, or it will not work out for me.

Valyraen was clearly a dominant before I came along - I didn't teach him to be a dominant. He did shown how to express it, how to cause pleasure-pain and what terms mean, how various power dynamics are structured so that he could figure out what he wanted. It was information that he could have picked up on the Internet but he didn't want to. He wanted to learn it from his girl for a lot of reasons.

I don't understand your last statement in the slightest. Would you perceive a physics professor as unknowledgable simply because he hasn't been exposed to BDSM and power dynamic relationships yet? In our case, Valyraen is quite intelliegent or I wouldn't have bothered with him. However, it just happened that he didn't have experience before me. How many people are first exposed to BDSM and power dynamics later in life? Not knowing about this stuff yet doesn't make a person intelligent or unworldly. Just means they need someone to go over the basics of all this.

I suppose whenever I see this topic I see "Oh I'll serve you and love you but G-d forbid I have to teach you". If I didn't know things that Valyraen didn't, he'd already be bored of me. We teach each other all the time and I just don't see the difference in instructing him in how to fire a gun (he had to listen to me or we'd be kicked off the range) and teaching him how to hold a flogger so he didn't have to go events before he wanted to. In both cases, I had information he wanted. I served him by providing it.

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ORIGINAL: sleepingbeauty2

No no, a physics instructor is definitely smart. I guess maybe I can better explain this way. And not necessarily in sexual whipping terms, i'm not talking about that at all, but an inexperienced Master/Dom may not understand initially how his interaction or lack of it would effect his slave/sub. Or how that type of relationship lends itself to something quite intense, UNTIL he has had the opportunity to experience it . If I'm bad, should I tell someone to whip me? or if he ignores me, does he understand that hurts much worse than whipping? If I'm good and trying my hardest and it is not noticed must I continously point it out? It's a learning process I would imagine.

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I need someone who understands those things. Learning on me would not necessarily be the best thing. I'm trying to learn and be good for him. If he tells me to do something and I get pouty (not that this EVER happens :) , he may have to figure out what to do about it. Am I supposed to jump in and say, "you know you really should do" ..... I don't want to do that. Won't work for me. I think I can teach through my response to him, but he's gotta be able to pick up on that - that is the part that's inherent of being who and what he is. That can't be taught by me and I don't want to try to teach it.

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ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

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ORIGINAL: sleepingbeauty2

No no, a physics instructor is definitely smart. I guess maybe I can better explain this way. And not necessarily in sexual whipping terms, i'm not talking about that at all, but an inexperienced Master/Dom may not understand initially how his interaction or lack of it would effect his slave/sub. Or how that type of relationship lends itself to something quite intense, UNTIL he has had the opportunity to experience it . If I'm bad, should I tell someone to whip me? or if he ignores me, does he understand that hurts much worse than whipping? If I'm good and trying my hardest and it is not noticed must I continously point it out? It's a learning process I would imagine.

Being an experienced dominant isn't going to tell him that ignoring you hurts you. That's something that vanilla guys have to learn too - how many 'nilla women complain about their men not paying attention to them? That's something that happens in all walks of life and it's something fixed by communication about needs and desires.

Quite frankly, your points are still illogical to me. These things that you mention don't come along with being a dominant. They come along with being in a relationship with someone and finding out what sort of feedback they need and how much. In fact, I've heard plenty of subs and slaves complain about the things you are mentioning.

As for whiping when bad... well in theory you won't be bad. In practice, you just say "Hey, I thrive in a punishment dynamic. Let's say I do X, it's ok to do Y or whatever you think is needed to punish me". Which sounds like the discussion I'd have with any dominant I'm considering getting into a relationship.

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I need someone who understands those things. Learning on me would not necessarily be the best thing. I'm trying to learn and be good for him. If he tells me to do something and I get pouty (not that this EVER happens :) , he may have to figure out what to do about it. Am I supposed to jump in and say, "you know you really should do" ..... I don't want to do that. Won't work for me. I think I can teach through my response to him, but he's gotta be able to pick up on that - that is the part that's inherent of being who and what he is. That can't be taught by me and I don't want to try to teach it.

See, you are thinking that a dominant can only be taught in one way. I don't see dominants teaching each other by going "you should do this" or "you should do that". In fact, I don't recall any of my effective teachers in college or anywhere in life taking that approach (beyond a "Don't do that or you'll cut your fingers off" situation). There are many ways to teach and you have to change how you teach to suit the situation.

I never told Valyraen that he *should* do anything, including offically owning me. When he wanted to learn how to use the flogger, I said "Ok, awesome! I really like it on the apple of my ass and if you practice turning light switches on and off with the tails you can work on your aim".

If you get pouty with an experienced dom, he still has to figure out what to do because you aren't the other girls he's been with. People are different and they react differently. Like I said, I get the attitude of "I just don't want to do it". But I just don't buy "It's bad for the dynamic".

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ORIGINAL: frazzle

Thanks LA, i have now cancelled the whole thing. he has no wish to learn.

He thought, sub meant stupid, and he'd get laid.

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ORIGINAL: sleepingbeauty2

I think we are over analyzing this. The bottom line, for me, I don't want to teach a Dom TOO much or I will perceive him as weak and that will not lend itself to him being dominant in my eyes. Period.