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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/27/2010 9:57:26 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Daniel 9:24-27

Don't all 3 teach from the Pentateuch? I guess I have been misinformed all of these years.

I further see you are willing to dodge questions about that with which you state your premise on.... like the citings from Isaiah.



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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/27/2010 10:01:55 PM   
Bodhisatva


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Oops forgot to respond to the other part of your post.

So you aren't willing to admit that there were translation errors and transliteration errors in the transcribing to English?


I freely admitt that the bible has errors in translation, sometimes they aren't even errors but a result of there not being an exact english word or phrase available, as my suggestion that son in law was in fact an error.

quote:

The Strongs is a pretty reliable book for catching such errors, and it states son in law of Heli, as you have noted they didn't list any other females in a lineage, and had to trace back the adopted son of the man who adopted him, which makes perfect sense (if one believes in the virgin birth) as there was no biological father to link.


No, I noted that by this time the culture had become matrilineal, so listed mary's line through jospeh is completely foreign to the culture of the time and place. Do you know what texts are the strongs translations are based on, and who did them?

quote:

 Again the lineage of Joseph is pretty well documented with his father being Jacob the son of Matthan. I find it hard to believe that you would rather believe that there is no error in translation than to accept this simple explanation why there are 2 lineages posted for Jesus.


I never, in any way, indicated that there were not errors in translations. But both lineages listed are clearly josephs. The gospels are filled with repeat stories that are not exactly alike, much like this case. For example when jesus kills the fig tree, one gospel has it dieing right away, another shows it withering the next day. Do you believe jesus killed two fig tree's on sepearate occasions (which was incedently against jewish law) or that they are the same story with a slight change between each author's telling? I would suggest that it's obviously the latter option, and it's not different with the geneologies.

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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/27/2010 10:04:40 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		"He wasnt the Messiah - he was a very naughty boy"

Honestly, is there any point to this? Those who think he is (present tense) the Messiah will not be persuaded otherwise, and those who think he isnt wont be persuaded otherwise either. Such debate misses the point entirely that it is a matter of faith.

E

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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/27/2010 10:14:10 PM   
Thadius


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Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		The Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible was written by Dr. James Strong, it has a cross reference of every word in the King James version back to the word in the original texts.



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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/27/2010 10:17:43 PM   
Bodhisatva


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhisatva

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming

Practicing Jews do not think he's the messiah. Christians do.

Everyone else thinks he's not.


If you want to use the Bible as your evidence, you'd hafta first establish its entire text as fact. So start there, or your arguments fall flat.





Psssssst. Who are you talking to?


In the bottom right corner of each post, above its number, it says who the post is "in reply to".

Now please hurry up and establish your references as completely factual texts, so that we can get on with this discussion.


It would seem you could not have missed the point any more. If one starts with the premise that the hebrew texts are false, than the entire concept of the messiah is false, so you can eleminate judiasm, christianity, and islam all in one go. All we can do is show what the hebrew messianic prophicies predict, and compare that to what the NT (as there are no historical sources that speak to jesus's actions or words) and see how they sink up, or do not, in this case.

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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/27/2010 10:22:12 PM   
Thadius


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Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		One last thing before I turn in for the night.

If lineage was at that point being tracked via maternal lines, why would they list the fathers that begat the sons, or list who the son of who was?

The 2 lineages reported in the NT are clearly for different parents, beside the fact that they list it as son's of in Luke and do the whole begat thing in Matthew, the names in each are different paths back to David.

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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/27/2010 10:33:11 PM   
Bodhisatva


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dominasola

If I may be so bold as to add some food for thought...

quote:



there are still a myriad of messianic prophicies jesus did not fullfill.



Are you ONLY sourcing the Bible making this statement?  Because there are also a myriad of documents about Jesus that didn't make it into the canonized New Testament.  The New Testament as we read it today only exists because the Early Church Fathers (like Origen, Irenaeus, Athanasius, Synod...) tried to produce a collection of works about Jesus that contradicted one another as little as possible.  There are many things he did in the non-canonized gospels that don't occur in the canonized ones.

quote:



Yes there were many books left out. Thanks to discoveries made in the last century, we have a more complete idea of what those were. Many of the books left out are what we know call gnostic texts. They were written long after jesus was dead, long after his disciples were dead, and long after their disciples were dead. Historically the books of the bible are not the most accurate, but historians look at certian factors to determine the likeness of accuracy. One key factor is the amount of time that has elapsed between the event and the authors writing on it. The gnostic text were far removed from the actual events. Plus, regaurdless of what texts have been lost, we know some prophicies couldn't have been fullfilled, like the messiah bringing world piece. Do you recall any world piece in the history books?



Fine, but if we read Exodus,  we discover that the Israelites were slaves to the Egpytians for some time.  It is reasonable to assume that they may have adopted many aspects of Egyptian culture, simply because they were there for so long.

It is reasonable to speculate this because there is HISTORICAL evidence of this cultural assimilation happening specifically with the Israelites.  When King Cyrus of Persia defeated the Babylonians and re-established Jerusalem and the temple for the Israelites, they began to adopt many aspects of Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians were seen as "messiahs" in the sense that they saved the Israelites from the bondage of the Babylonians.


Yes there is compelling historical evidence to suggest culture from other civilizations have worked there way into jewish lore through the years. Still, I'm approaching this topic from a scriptural standpoint. If I was to approach it with history (a perfectly valid approach) I'd be presenting a different set of facts. Plus, you still would have to show that this particular aspect of egyptian culture was a) real (there is no historical evidence to suggest the hebrew people were ever enslaved in egypt, suggesting that the mosses story is complete fiction and b) if it is real that this practice was carried by the escaping hebrew people and maintained for years until their kingdom was established and a king placed on the throne. And even if you did, this would still leave the issue that the prophicies call for the messiah to be of the seed of david. This isn't just about right to rule but the fullfillment of prophicy.

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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/28/2010 12:31:02 AM   
PyrotheClown


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/18/2009
Status: offline 		jesus aint no messiah,he's a roofer, he did mine last year. Kept muttering something bout "Greengo estúpido", do you think it was god talking through him?

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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/28/2010 9:06:08 AM   
Bodhisatva


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

The Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible was written by Dr. James Strong, it has a cross reference of every word in the King James version back to the word in the original texts.




Ah, two problems there. First of all, there are no 'original texts' available. Go ahead, look into the earliest surviving manuscripts. Second, the King James Version is widely viewed as the worst translation in modern use by the the vast majority of scholars in this field.

< Message edited by Bodhisatva -- 2/28/2010 9:40:56 AM >

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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/28/2010 9:37:07 AM   
Bodhisatva


Posts: 85
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline 		Ok so I looked at the passage you provided, and it certianly is colorful. I don't see a compelling reason to interpret weeks as years here, and if it's 70 7's, then when you add it all up it's about 10 years. Also it seems to suggest that a moat will be built around the temple. As far as I'm aware there was never a moat around either of the temples. Nor do I recall the jewish people destroying their own temple. What do you think?

Daniel 9:24-27 

"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.
"So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." (Daniel 9:24-27).



< Message edited by Bodhisatva -- 2/28/2010 9:40:21 AM >

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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/28/2010 9:50:41 AM   
MichiganHeadmast


Posts: 726
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Status: offline 		I think it's on His resume.

If that's not good enough, you can check His references.

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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/28/2010 10:04:18 AM   
Bodhisatva


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast

I think it's on His resume.

If that's not good enough, you can check His references.


That is in a way what we're doing. Checking jesus's references. It seems he's lied on his resume quite a lot.

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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/28/2010 10:13:34 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

One last thing before I turn in for the night.

If lineage was at that point being tracked via maternal lines, why would they list the fathers that begat the sons, or list who the son of who was?

Because the synoptic gospels were written by Greeks not Hebrews and based on many many other details of daily life in Judea that are incorrect in the synoptic gospels it is probable that the author of the X manuscript upon which all 3 are based had never been in Judea and knew next to nothing about Jewish law and cultural practices.

Since both lineages are from the synoptics it is reasonable to assume that they are derived from a single original lineage in the X manuscript and that both are meant to be the lineage of Joseph and both are added simply to make Jesus a descendant of David to make him royal as was required both by Jewish tradition but was also a necessary part of the mystery cult tradition which is what the early christian church was.

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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/28/2010 10:15:48 AM   
MstrPBK


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Status: offline 		I am neither Christian or a scholar of archaic Calendars or time systems. But from what I understand the western calendar we know has changed at least 8 times. Based on even that our calendar is ahead of ourselves by 7 years. Even though 69 weeks becomes 1 year 7 weeks to our contemporary calendar, I have no comprehension what the calendar equation is to the period calendar of biblical writer was referring to. One needs to tread very carefully here because some scholars believe that the bible was written over 75 to 100 years after Christ; and that the bible re-canonized at least once. These two factors play influence on the reference above.

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA

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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/28/2010 10:16:25 AM   
PyrotheClown


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/18/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast

I think it's on His resume.

If that's not good enough, you can check His references.


He has a resume now, man he's really stepping up, I just picked him up outside of home depot

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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/28/2010 10:20:11 AM   
PyrotheClown


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/18/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhisatva

quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast

I think it's on His resume.

If that's not good enough, you can check His references.


That is in a way what we're doing. Checking jesus's references. It seems he's lied on his resume quite a lot.


haha, don't blame him, most of that shit was written years after his death.... Then put together by a roman(st.jerome)..

Shit, I still think he was just a "Brother" out to fight the man (Rome)...

I see the bible the same way I see Che Guevara shirts

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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/28/2010 10:26:32 AM   
Bodhisatva


Posts: 85
Joined: 2/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrPBK

I am neither Christian or a scholar of archaic Calendars or time systems. But from what I understand the western calendar we know has changed at least 8 times. Based on even that our calendar is ahead of ourselves by 7 years. Even though 69 weeks becomes 1 year 7 weeks to our contemporary calendar, I have no comprehension what the calendar equation is to the period calendar of biblical writer was referring to. One needs to tread very carefully here because some scholars believe that the bible was written over 75 to 100 years after Christ; and that the bible re-canonized at least once. These two factors play influence on the reference above.

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA


The bible has recanonized several times, and the cannon varies depending on denomination. For example the ethiopian church is the only one that contains the book of Enoch in it's cannon. However I don't think that is particularly relevant for this topic. As for calendars, no, we don't use the same system as was used in the time of the author daniel, but 7 days have been a route of a jewish week for centuries, as can be seen in the genesis account, so I don't think the calendar has changed enough to make the timeline fit for jesus.

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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/28/2010 10:28:05 AM   
Bodhisatva


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Joined: 2/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhisatva

quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast

I think it's on His resume.

If that's not good enough, you can check His references.


That is in a way what we're doing. Checking jesus's references. It seems he's lied on his resume quite a lot.


haha, don't blame him, most of that shit was written years after his death.... Then put together by a roman(st.jerome)..

Shit, I still think he was just a "Brother" out to fight the man (Rome)...

I see the bible the same way I see Che Guevara shirts


Lol, true enough.

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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/28/2010 10:29:28 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrPBK

I am neither Christian or a scholar of archaic Calendars or time systems. But from what I understand the western calendar we know has changed at least 8 times. Based on even that our calendar is ahead of ourselves by 7 years. Even though 69 weeks becomes 1 year 7 weeks to our contemporary calendar, I have no comprehension what the calendar equation is to the period calendar of biblical writer was referring to. One needs to tread very carefully here because some scholars believe that the bible was written over 75 to 100 years after Christ; and that the bible re-canonized at least once. These two factors play influence on the reference above.

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA

The only major calendar change that we need to concern ourselves with in this case is teh shift from the Julian calendar (in use in Rome and in roman influenced areas since 45 BCE) and the Gregorian Calnedar (date of adoption varies based on country.0 England and the colonies switched in 1752 CE). The difference between the two calendars is 13 days (Dec 25 in the Julian calendar is Jan 7 of the next year in the Gregorian which is why Jan 7 is when most orthodox churches celebrate Christmas.


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RE: Was jesus the messiah? - 2/28/2010 10:45:48 AM   
heartcream


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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		I am not sure how we count the Bible as the be all end all to what did or didnt happen. Much like following government, let us say, to say and know all that has happened in our society. That would not be a fair and honest account would it? Nope because so much goes on doesnt it?

How bout that they left the Book of Mary out of the bible huh? What does that tell you about the reliability or absolute truth about a bunch of written words by men back then? Think it might be a skewed place to go look for your hard core evidence.

That whole, if it is not written down officially, it didnt happen makes me wonder how someone cannot use their own brain to figure things out, thinking, "Well, I dont see it written anywhere so, uh, nope, didnt happen."

In the long run it doesnt matter what anyone thinks about what did or did not happen back then about Jesus. Any power attributed real, or fabricated doesnt really change how things did or will go down does it?

If Jews dont believe something it doesnt make reality one thing or another. If Christians believe something fervently it also doesn not mean it is true or not. Truth will out. Que sera.

Throwing around words from a very fuddy duddy old book and holding that up as absolute reality--you dont see how funny that is? Lots of wisdom and perhaps even truth in the old pages but so is there is many other books.

Sure, go, look learn. Dissect til your eyes bleed but it does not mean you know the truth either way.

Where is the Book of Mary huh? Why did they opt to leave that out? I bet it had really good recipes for non gluten muffins in it.

I find it snortingly funny to think one would come on here and spout a bunch of this and that from an old book and have a "See therefore this or that is true, did or did not happen..."

Yeah because in life if it is not written down in a book it means it did or did not happen. A good way to live one's life. Not.

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Every single line means something.
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