RE: Consent and the Unexpected

RE: Consent and the Unexpected (Full Version)

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Tayr -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/5/2010 4:23:33 PM)
Perhaps, instead of getting angry and rude to him, a better response might have been to educate the fella on the problems inherent with fulfilling this fantasy. He obviously wasn't aware of the various dangers in this kind of thing, as others have listed. You could have even suggested that he post on these forums asking for advice on how best to implement this particular fantasy. That way, he would at least be informed that there might be more here that needs to be considered than he realizes, instead of being left thinking that you just aren't interested in helping him. At the very least, he should probably sit down with his girlfriend and ask her some questions like, "Would you ever like it if I were to try and make one of your fantasies come true? And if they included another person, would you want to know about it beforehand?" And so on. That way, he's not guessing at what's in her noggin before he proceeds with the rest of it.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/5/2010 4:28:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tayr Perhaps, instead of getting angry and rude to him, a better response might have been to educate the fella on the problems inherent with fulfilling this fantasy. He obviously wasn't aware of the various dangers in this kind of thing, as others have listed. You could have even suggested that he post on these forums asking for advice on how best to implement this particular fantasy. That way, he would at least be informed that there might be more here that needs to be considered than he realizes, instead of being left thinking that you just aren't interested in helping him. I think I wasn't clear enough in my OP-I did get angry, but that was after he dismissed my concerns about the idea out of hand. He told me that I was living in an "insular, paranoid little play-world" and that I was "100% wrong". I only got angry and rude after that.

UniqueRaven -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/5/2010 4:37:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: Tayr Perhaps, instead of getting angry and rude to him, a better response might have been to educate the fella on the problems inherent with fulfilling this fantasy. He obviously wasn't aware of the various dangers in this kind of thing, as others have listed. You could have even suggested that he post on these forums asking for advice on how best to implement this particular fantasy. That way, he would at least be informed that there might be more here that needs to be considered than he realizes, instead of being left thinking that you just aren't interested in helping him. I think I wasn't clear enough in my OP-I did get angry, but that was after he dismissed my concerns about the idea out of hand. He told me that I was living in an "insular, paranoid little play-world" and that I was "100% wrong". I only got angry and rude after that. Wow, did he really use those exact words? That's the point where i would realize that the person isn't interested in my advice or help - and my next response would have been "OK, good luck with that." And then nothing else. Life's too short for negativity. [:)] Oh, and edited to add - it has been my experience that men that resort to name-calling and insults were trying to put one over in the first place. Add me to the "you did the right thing" group. Just maybe next time a little nicer. [:D]

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/5/2010 4:41:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven Wow, did he really use those exact words? yes he did. quote: That's the point where i would realize that the person isn't interested in my advice or help - and my next response would have been "OK, good luck with that." And then nothing else. Life's too short for negativity. [:)] Oh, and edited to add - it has been my experience that men that resort to name-calling and insults were trying to put one over in the first place. Add me to the "you did the right thing" group. Just maybe next time a little nicer. [:D] 'Life's too short for negativity'-I should write that on a post-it and tack it to my laptop. Next time I'll not allow myself to get cross :-)

UniqueRaven -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/5/2010 5:24:24 PM)
i'm glad you like it. [:)] If i may, just shake this one off - ultimately he'll find the person who will help fulfill his/their fantasy, and you don't need his validation to know you were doing what was right for you. Hugs! julie

littlewonder -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/5/2010 5:26:13 PM)
It made you uncomfortable. It's not your thing. I don't think I would have become angry. I just would have politely said thanks but no thanks and left it at that. In my relationship with my Master if that's what he wanted to do then so be it. when I agreed to be his slave I agreed to consent once at the beginning and after that all choices are in his hands, not mine.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/5/2010 5:28:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven i'm glad you like it. [:)] If i may, just shake this one off - ultimately he'll find the person who will help fulfill his/their fantasy, and you don't need his validation to know you were doing what was right for you. Hugs! julie Thanks, Julie-and the post-it will stop me getting het up if it happens again! Hugs to you too :-)

DesFIP -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/5/2010 5:55:13 PM)
Like others have said, just because she enjoys it as a fantasy doesn't mean she would enjoy it in reality. Many women enjoy rape fantasies which does not translate to them enjoying it if they were actually raped. As far as no way to get consent? Hardly. They could go to munches or parties and discuss things socially. At which point it could easily be asked if she wants her fantasy ever to be lived out or would prefer it as a fantasy and if so how would she see it working out well? He may have meant well but he seems pretty clueless unless he's so turned on by the idea that he's ignoring all the problems.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/5/2010 6:16:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious Ok, so this has been bugging me for a while. I got a memo some time ago from a guy asking me to dominate his girlfriend-the idea was that she would undress and blindfold herself in a hotel room, at which point the Domme (theoretically me) was supposed to enter with the guy-the girlfriend wouldn't be told that there was another person in the room until both the Domme and the boyfriend were touching her at once. I told him in no uncertain terms that there was no way in hell I would do this, because of the consent issues-how could his girlfriend consent to me being there if she didn't know I was there at all? His response was that the surprise was a part of a long-term fantasy of hers that he was trying to make come true. He didn't seem to have a back-up plan for what to do if it turned out that she wasn't as keen on the reality as she was on the fantasy. I was pretty rude to him-this was one of the few times I've actually got angry on Collarme. He said I was being overly paranoid, and that he loved his girlfriend and would never do anything to hurt her. I guess I'm now starting to wonder if I overreacted. Do you guys think that this was a reasonable request? Would there have been a way of doing this safely? Personally, yes... I think you overreacted because of the above: a) It's an expressed fantasy of HERS. b) She'd have willingly gone to a hotel room, undressed and blindfolded HERSELF. I don't know recently his girlfriend had expressed interest in this fantasy, but I'd have suggested her boyfriend casually bring it up and see what her interest level was... maybe by saying something like, "Everyone has fantasies... I wonder how you'd react if this became a reality?", and see what her reaction is. If good, then obviously it's something y'all could have gone through with. The whole premise of the fantasy is that she wouldn't know, so it's not like it could ever be planned with her knowledge; that'd just kill the fantasy. In truth, this scenario isn't that different from what frequently happens under this dynamic where a bottom may have expressed a fantasy (or interest in some activity, via a checklist, discussion, or whatever) and the Top fulfills it at some later time without the bottom knowing what's been planned. It's always the same... monitor the other person's reaction, and move forward (or pull back), as needed.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/5/2010 7:42:23 PM)
quote: Personally, yes... I think you overreacted because of the above: a) It's an expressed fantasy of HERS. b) She'd have willingly gone to a hotel room, undressed and blindfolded HERSELF. That's not why she over reacted. Read here: http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3101840 Oh and I understand the need to highlight words, but I think the way you did could be perceived as a little overeacting ;-) And a note to VC -- I wouldn't have touched that situation with a 10 foot pole regardless if it was ok for them. I just don't need that kind of potential drama in my life. - LA

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/6/2010 1:37:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA b) She'd have willingly gone to a hotel room, undressed and blindfolded HERSELF. I know what you're saying, but in my head there's a world of difference between undressing and blindfolding yourself so that your boyfriend can do hot kinky things to you (what she was expecting) and undressing and blindfolding yourself so that someone else who you are unaware of can do (potentially) hot kinky things to you (what she would have ended up getting). And as for monitoring her reactions-by the time she would have a chance to react the Domme would already have seen her undressed, would already have touched her... I don't know about you, but I think if I personally experienced that without prior knowledge that I would view it as a violation. No? <edited because one of the sentences had too many and yet not enough 'that's simultaneously>

GraciousLady -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/6/2010 8:11:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: Tayr Perhaps, instead of getting angry and rude to him, a better response might have been to educate the fella on the problems inherent with fulfilling this fantasy. He obviously wasn't aware of the various dangers in this kind of thing, as others have listed. You could have even suggested that he post on these forums asking for advice on how best to implement this particular fantasy. That way, he would at least be informed that there might be more here that needs to be considered than he realizes, instead of being left thinking that you just aren't interested in helping him. I think I wasn't clear enough in my OP-I did get angry, but that was after he dismissed my concerns about the idea out of hand. He told me that I was living in an "insular, paranoid little play-world" and that I was "100% wrong". I only got angry and rude after that. Well, I can't say you were wrong to get mad after he said those things to you. If the guy was that mad at you, a total stranger, for NOT doing what he wanted I can only imagine what an odd situation it could have been had you gone along with him. He sounds like the kind who wanted things his way so much he may have not been telling the complete truth about what his wife wanted. His anger at you may have been because he had been turned down a lot already.

afkarr -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/6/2010 8:54:36 AM)
I was recently asked via email from another site to borrow a Doms girl sub (I switch with girls only). They apparently have a relationship where he "loans" her out to other Doms he knows. As I didn't know either of them, I established I would consider it only if I met her in person first, and established the she was, in fact, OK with this. After that, I just might have her meet me blindfolded some day, or blindfold and tie her up and then have him join in; but I wasn't about to step into anything without an agreement to play upfront.

DomImus -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/6/2010 9:10:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious I think I wasn't clear enough in my OP-I did get angry, but that was after he dismissed my concerns about the idea out of hand. He told me that I was living in an "insular, paranoid little play-world" and that I was "100% wrong". I only got angry and rude after that. In light of this I retract my comment about your response to him. My bad for not waiting the obligatory 2-3 pages to get all the details I needed to make an informed comment.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/6/2010 9:14:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomImus quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious I think I wasn't clear enough in my OP-I did get angry, but that was after he dismissed my concerns about the idea out of hand. He told me that I was living in an "insular, paranoid little play-world" and that I was "100% wrong". I only got angry and rude after that. In light of this I retract my comment about your response to him. My bad for not waiting the obligatory 2-3 pages to get all the details I needed to make an informed comment. Nah, my bad for my lack of clarity-next time I ask for advice/opinions here I will be much more careful about chronology. :-)

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/6/2010 2:55:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA b) She'd have willingly gone to a hotel room, undressed and blindfolded HERSELF. I know what you're saying, but in my head there's a world of difference between undressing and blindfolding yourself so that your boyfriend can do hot kinky things to you (what she was expecting) and undressing and blindfolding yourself so that someone else who you are unaware of can do (potentially) hot kinky things to you (what she would have ended up getting). And as for monitoring her reactions-by the time she would have a chance to react the Domme would already have seen her undressed, would already have touched her... I don't know about you, but I think if I personally experienced that without prior knowledge that I would view it as a violation. No? Again, if her boyfriend would have pushed the issue to see if this was just a "fantasy" or if she was really open to it becoming a "reality", I don't think it would have been such a big deal. Heck, you two could have even arranged for the two of you to meet (under the guise of you being a friend from the office, or whatever, and were meeting for lunch) and gotten a sense of her yourself. To be clear, I have no idea if the guy was being truthful or not, he could have been totally full of shit. However, the scenario of the blindfolded girl being used, dominated, or whatever without prior knowledge of what was to transpire is NOTHING NEW. Many of the BDSM ilk have done this sort of thing... it's really not that novel. In truth, I think most got the idea from the movie 9-1/2 Weeks, as there was a similar scene in the movie.

Falkenstein -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/6/2010 5:09:58 PM)
It reminds me of a song of the Doors "Alabama Songs" / Whiskey bar. You were utterly right.

DesFIP -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/6/2010 6:51:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA Personally, yes... I think you overreacted because of the above: a) It's an expressed fantasy of HERS. There is no proof of that. I would think it more likely that it is an expressed fantasy of HIS and he is refusing allowing anyone to get consent from her because he knows she would not give it.

PeonForHer -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/6/2010 7:07:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA Personally, yes... I think you overreacted because of the above: a) It's an expressed fantasy of HERS. There is no proof of that. I would think it more likely that it is an expressed fantasy of HIS and he is refusing allowing anyone to get consent from her because he knows she would not give it. I keep thinking: what if there were hard proof? I mean, say, a written statement from her, to the effect that she wanted said fantasy to occur and that it would happen some time over the next X weeks/months? I find myself comparing this set-up to that of the kidnapping issue discussed on the Mistress forum recently . . . .

Smutmonger -> RE: Consent and the Unexpected (3/6/2010 7:23:57 PM)
I believe that consent is informed-or it isn't.

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