RE: A simple idea about healthcare (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 10:29:44 AM)

The problem is that you're assuming the status quo is stable. It isn't.

I like my insurance too. But I can see the situation is not sustainable.

We pay more for health care than any other nation, and more and more each year, far surpassing inflation. Yet we're the only country without this simple safety net. It would relieve a burden on families, on small businesses, on large labor contracts, and replace emergency care with far more inexpensive preventative care.



truckinslave -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 10:35:44 AM)

I suppose everyone who really looks at this would like to replace emergency care with routine care. But it doesn't take a 2700 page bill devoted to accounting gimmicks to do that.
It would be interesting to see a bill addressing that part of the problem.
Which is how many of us opposing this takeover would like to see the problem approached- incrementallly. One part of the problem and one bipartisan solution at a time.



Musicmystery -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 10:40:55 AM)

But incremental won't work.

To pass laws insisting insurance companies must cover XYZ, we also have to address getting more people in the pool and covered.

I wouldn't worry. This will never pass. People will continue to deny it until the system eventually collapses.



Sanity -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 11:02:39 AM)


You're not talking about a safety net, you're talking about a hammock. And the budgets that Obama is calling for which would be needed to support of his version of "reform" have been determined to be unsustainable by the CBO.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3102628

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The problem is that you're assuming the status quo is stable. It isn't.

I like my insurance too. But I can see the situation is not sustainable.

We pay more for health care than any other nation, and more and more each year, far surpassing inflation. Yet we're the only country without this simple safety net. It would relieve a burden on families, on small businesses, on large labor contracts, and replace emergency care with far more inexpensive preventative care.



rulemylife -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 11:09:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Waiting for your facts, sir, as opposed to what you heard from "Tom Baker".


I gave you facts, and asked for yours.

This wasn't from Baker, it was from a division of a company that does analysis for the insurance industry.

So if there is any bias, as you imply, it is in the opposite direction.

So let me re-post from Baker's interview:

According to the actuarial consulting firm Towers Perrin, medical malpractice tort costs were $30.4 billion in 2007, the last year for which data are available. We have a more than a $2 trillion health care system. That puts litigation costs and malpractice insurance at 1 to 1.5 percent of total medical costs.

Which you can then verify from the original study he quoted from:

2008 Update on U.S. Tort Cost Trends

And some other sources:

Tort costs and the economy: Myths, exaggerations, and propaganda

GAO-03-836 Medical Malpractice: Implications of Rising Premiums on ...





rulemylife -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 11:17:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

The point of the public option is the elimination of competition.


It's interesting how this argument goes.

On another thread we heard that the Postal Service is so inefficient it should be taken over by the private sector, yet when the idea of a government health option is introduced the claim is that the private sector sector cannot compete.



zephyroftheNorth -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 11:23:20 AM)

quote:

The price of an x-ray machine, never mind an MRI machine, or a CT or ultrasound is outrageous.


Not to mention the cost of having enough people to run those machines.....and people to read the scans....and people to type the reports in a timely manner. The hospital I work at has a lovely PET scanner, donated by hockey player Saku Koivu, BUT we don't have enough people to do the scans so the wait is long. We are greatly understaffed when it comes to technologists, and 30 (I think) are getting ready to retire with noone to replace them. That is a major problem here, along with the shortage of family doctors.



Moonhead -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 11:25:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

The cost that is spiralling upward without end is government. The gift that keeps on giving. The swamp that never drains.

Can I ask again why none of you people had this problem with Government when a white Republican (who also had a fake accent) was in the oval office?



rulemylife -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 11:40:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I suppose everyone who really looks at this would like to replace emergency care with routine care. But it doesn't take a 2700 page bill devoted to accounting gimmicks to do that.
It would be interesting to see a bill addressing that part of the problem.
Which is how many of us opposing this takeover would like to see the problem approached- incrementallly. One part of the problem and one bipartisan solution at a time.


No, why you are opposing this is because you listen to too many talking points without substantiation or researching the issue yourself.

Evidenced by your use of the term "takeover" for health care reform.

The government is not taking over anything.  Even the public option was not a takeover and that seems to be off the table now.  The only thing on the table is trying to regulate the insurance companies' abusive practices that far too often have made profit their only goal.



Moonhead -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 11:48:37 AM)

But abusive practices in pursuit of profit is the American way. Anybody who objects to that is a socialist. (Or a Nazi. Or both...)



AnimusRex -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 11:57:05 AM)

I think it is worth asking why we accept the premise that health care is a product like a toaster, to be bought and sold and its distribution entirely dictated by the marketplace.

As a manager of a small business, I enjoy the marketplace, think that its a great thing, and should form the foundation of our economy.

But things like the market, government, laws and regulation are only means to an end. These are things that a society uses to reach a goal, which is a society that provides freedom, prosperity, and human dignity.

In all other areas of our society, we use a combination of free market, governmental laws and regulation, to create a social good.
We used the airwaves as regulated monopolies, until the Web and cable made switching to a more free market system made sense; Long distance telephone switched from a regulated monopoly to a free market system, but the local telephone company is still a regulated monopoly, again, because it makes practical sense.

In each of these cases, we pursued the otion that had the best result for the three basic goals of freedom, prosperity, and human dignity.

Our current healthcare system provides freedom and prosperity, but is terrible at providing for human dignity; tens of millions of people suffer needlessly, either not getting medical care, or getting it only at the cost of bankruptcy.

Accepting this is really a violation of the foundation of what society is all about; its not that the current reform package is perfect, but so far, its the best option on the table, and will improve things for millions of people.

Trying to turn it into a debate over Sociallism versus Capitalism only shows a preference for religious dogma and theological debating, rather than pragmatic solution finding.



Musicmystery -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 12:07:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

The cost that is spiralling upward without end is government. The gift that keeps on giving. The swamp that never drains.


Here we have the heart of it.

You aren't interest in solving problems. You aren't interested in correctly targeting those problems. And neither are those leaders whose talking points you blithely repeat.

If it's government, to you, it's bad. Doesn't matter what the issue, what the complexities, that's it for you.

What you and yours miss is that you're being played. Each time you vote for this, for the past thirty years, government gets bigger, the deficit gets bigger, state and local taxes and fees grow disproportionately, and the rich get richer and the gulf between rich and poor widens.

It's a red herring. The issue is rapidly spiraling health care costs, a pattern going on for a while and getting worse. Your answer, government is bad, completely dodges the matter while the situation continues to worsen, and while you'll vote for another round at the trough, thinking all the while you're draining it.

Talk to business leaders about health care costs. Talk to small business owners about it. Get out into the real world.

It's a problem. It's going to continue to drag the economy down and eventually crash the system. Ignored, people will one day BEG for a "government take-over."




Moonhead -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 12:10:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
It's a problem. It's going to continue to drag the economy down and eventually crash the system. Ignored, people will one day BEG for a "government take-over."

Agree with the rest, but people like truckinslave are never going to beg for a government takeover of anything with Glenn Beck's hand up their arses.



Musicmystery -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 12:13:42 PM)

The real cost of their health insurance per person averages $13,000/year. It continues to climb.

That's unsustainable. They won't have health care to worry about.




AnimusRex -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 12:19:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Talk to business leaders about health care costs. Talk to small business owners about it. Get out into the real world.


Speaking as a business manager-
I am a manager of a division within a medium sized firm; last year we paid more for our employees health insurance than we did for our corporate income tax.

So when two politicians come around, one offering us yet another "tax cut" and another promising to increase our tax, but remove totally our health insurance cost, who seems to offer a better deal?

Eventually, the free market health insurance is going to bankrupt our business. We would be miles ahead to pay 50% more in corporate income tax, if only we could get out from under the private health insurance cost.



Moonhead -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 12:26:32 PM)

It's unlikely to be anything like 50%. Most of the socialist eurotrash communescountries where they have socialised medicine pay less income tax than the American rate. Mind you, nobody I've spoken to about that is making more than a hundred grand a year, so maybe they're paying even less tax...



popeye1250 -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 12:32:07 PM)

Here's a simple idea, give us the same healthcare plan that the congress has.



Fellow -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 12:58:45 PM)

Going after doctors income seems "politically incorrect" idea for a US citizen mind. The fact is US doctors compensation is significantly more than the doctors in other industrial nations http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doctors-in-other-countries-make/
What is so "special" about US doctors?
The same applies to the support staff in the medical establishments. Medical service is very labor intensive. The current  focus is on insurance providers but their profit margin is only 1-3% in average and it is determined by the other costs. The cost problem should be fixed on all fronts incl. incomes of the medical service providers, the administrative cost, the cost of diagnostics, the lawyers cut and so on. How to tell doctors to take 25% pay cut is a problem of course. One way would be to issue a special visa for foreign doctors to practice in US. H1B visa in high tech and science has reduced salaries in these  areas significantly. Why to deviate from neo-liberal globalization ideology in medical care area while practicing in most others (reducing median income of the population available for the medical care)? Bill Gates lobbies consistently the Congress to increase the quota numbers for his IT industry (even during recession and unemployment).



AnimusRex -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 1:20:34 PM)

Fellow-
OK, lets go down that route; suppose we enact strong governmental controls that somehow magically reduce medical costs.

So a $100,000 treatment is reduced to $50,000.

For most working families, a $50,000 bill might as well be a million.

Fixating on medical cost is fine, but we are still dancing around the issue of whether we can or will commit to providing non-emergency medical care to those who can't pay.



Fellow -> RE: A simple idea about healthcare (3/6/2010 2:30:22 PM)

quote:

Fellow-
OK, lets go down that route; suppose we enact strong governmental controls that somehow magically reduce medical costs.

So a $100,000 treatment is reduced to $50,000.

For most working families, a $50,000 bill might as well be a million.

Fixating on medical cost is fine, but we are still dancing around the issue of whether we can or will commit to providing non-emergency medical care to those who can't pay.



There is no magic needed. Other countries do it. How else can you provide the care for people who can not afford it?  People resist increasing taxes to feed the current medical racket. Borrowing from Chinese can not be a long-term solution.



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