luckydawg
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
quote:
ORIGINAL: luckydawg
Then cite me a civilian criminal case where a conviction (and upheld)was obtained with secret evidence, from secret witness, using secret methods
Mnot can't and resorted to screaming insults. Can you?
Well, I was looking up some clever screaming insults, but accidently stumbled across this:
Julius & Ethel Lindbergh;
Robert Phillip Hanssen;
Christopher Boyce;
Aldrich Ames;
Micheal and John Walker;
Among many others; All of these cases involved highly sensitive, top secret classified material, covert agents, and classified methods, as you requested.
For instance, consider the Rosenbergs; Since much of the evidence against them was sensitive, much was redacted during the trial; for many years, some people were convinced of their innocence, and it was only after the Berlin Wall fell in 1989, and Soviet classified materials get opened, did absolute proof of their guilt come out.
In other words, we have never had a problem accusing, trying, and convicting people of crimes in highly sensitive classified intelligence cases.
When I said we have been doing this a while, I wasn't being snarky. We grappled with the issue of how to keep state secrets and at the same time, comply with civil liberties and freedom, as far back as the Revolution, when John Adams (The guy who invented beer) defended British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre. Today he would be accused by Liz Cheney of being a "terrorist sympathizer"; but he was proud to provide a legal defense for men accused of crimes, even though he was a committed Patriot.
The idea that the war against Islamic terrorism is somehow "new" or freakishly different, and that our Constitution is incapable of handling it, is total nonsense.
Ok Animus, lets go through these one by one.
the rosenbergs...."The prosecution's primary witness, David Greenglass, stated that his sister Ethel typed notes containing U.S. nuclear secrets in the Rosenberg apartment in September 1945. He also testified that he turned over to Julius Rosenberg a sketch of the cross-section of an implosion-type atom bomb (the "Fat Man" bomb dropped on Nagasaki, Japan, as opposed to a bomb with the "gun method" triggering device as used in the "Little Boy" bomb dropped on Hiroshima).[21]"
Brother dropped a dime, public testimony, no secret witnesses or spy work
Robert Hansen..."At the time of the arrest at a park in Vienna, Virginia, Robert Philip Hanssen, age 56, was clandestinely placing a package containing highly classified information at a pre-arranged, or "dead drop," site for pick-up by his Russian handlers."
Caught red handed passing secrets, no secret testimony or methods needed to be revealed
Christoper Boyce..."Boyce, then 24, was exposed after Lee was arrested by Mexican police in front of the Soviet Embassy in December 1976 on suspicion of having killed a police officer. During his interrogation, Lee, who had top secret microfilm in his possession when arrested, confessed to being a Soviet spy and implicated Boyce. Arrested in January 1977, Boyce was convicted in April of espionage and sentenced to 40 years in prison at the federal penitentiary in Lompoc, California."
Arrested for something else, found with classified microfilm on his person, No secret evidence or witnesses needed to get a conviction
Aldrich Ames...." A search of Ames' office uncovered 144 classified intelligence reports not related to his current assignment in CIA's Counternarcotics Center."
Found red handed with illegal documkents, then he plead guilty. No secret testimony or evidence was needed at all.
John Walker..."In May 1985, the FBI was tipped off to Walker's activities by Walker's then ex-wife Barbara, to whom he had refused to pay alimony.[1] Following an investigation, the FBI arrested Walker, Whitworth, Arthur Walker and Michael Walker. Ironically, Walker himself was arrested at a motel in Montgomery County, Maryland using a trick he used to catch people in adultery cases: telephoning their hotel room and telling them that their car had been hit in an accident.[1] Barbara Walker was not prosecuted because of her role in disclosing the ring.[1]"
Ex wife dropped a dime because he wasn't paying Alimony. Yet again, no secret witnesses or methods were used in the conviction.
Are you seeing the patern Animus? None of these cases used secret evidence or witnesses. Not a single one.
Why can't any of you cite a single upheld conviction using secret evidence, that can't be challenged, and/or secret witness?
"Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense."
How are you going to get around this? Or else the agents have to publically testify, as well as disclose the methods used to get the information.
Right?
_____________________________
I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.
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RE: Civilian trials... Maybe not - 
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