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Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/30/2006 1:00:39 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		A recent thread has got me to thinking about whether instincts can be overcome by conditioning. I was speaking there about jumping out of the way of an on-coming car then hearing Himself yell at me to 'freeze' which I do automatically at this point. I wonder whether or not I 'would' freeze rather than jump out of the way. I 'think' I would freeze... but I'm not sure and don't want to go play in traffic just to test the theory. I once had to jump out of a moving car... we were travelling at about 35 mph up in the Santa Cruz mountains ... and Master told me to jump.. and I did, but I could also see that we were about to go over a cliff, so it wasn't just blindly following an order. At the same time, there was very little time to actually, mentally process the thought.. I just jumped.

So, have you been in similar situations either as the Master giving such an order or as a slave who did or did not follow the command? If not, do you have a belief on how you would actually react or how your slave would react?

Celeste

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 3/30/2006 1:05:15 PM >

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RE: Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/30/2006 1:08:19 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I've been in situations where someone would tell me and I'd just do it automatically- this is true for my owners and other people.  If I was babysitting, heard a crash and my nephew start to cry, I wouldn't sit and think about it- I'd just do it, completely on auto pilot.

I think, if told with enough force and startle effect that a person could react immediately to a command rather than think about it, or do something else.  But, give them a second to think about it and they could overcome anything.  I find it amusing when I play with new singletailers and they love that cracking near the body thing.  (Which isn't very good for one's hearing BTW)  I'm completely conditioned to it now and don't ever react to just the sound alone. 

I don't think this really has anything to do with M/s or D/s except perhaps that a master is likely to have more time and impetus to train certain reactions in the slave.

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RE: Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/30/2006 1:23:57 PM   
texguy98


Posts: 71
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline 		Agreed. I think people condition themselves to overcome instincts every day. Soldiers have to learn how to stay calm during battle. This involves hearing gunshots and explotions all around you and not diving for cover or simply running away. When I used to play hockey, I had to over come my instincts to cover my face when I saw a puck flying at me. Especially when playing goalie :)

I think this type of conditiong is very common.

David

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RE: Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/30/2006 1:24:02 PM   
starymists


Posts: 139
Joined: 2/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
So, have you been in similar situations either as the Master giving such an order or as a slave who did or did not follow the command? If not, do you have a belief on how you would actually react or how your slave would react?


I've certainly been in similar situations, where my Dominant has given an order and it's been blindly followed. For instance, a time that we stopped at a gas station and I'd started to get out of the car and was immediately ordered, in a very sharp tone of voice, to get back in *which I did*. Later, he explained that he didn't think it had been a safe place for me to be based on whatever it was that he saw as he was getting out of the car.
 
And I don't think its instinct or conditioning, at least for me. In my case, it's simply trust. When he says something, for the most part, there is that instantaneous sense of him acting on my behalf, and in my best interest. I know if hes telling me to do something, particularly in that sharp, kind of urgent tone of voice, that he is aware of something I'm not, and I go with it.

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RE: Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/30/2006 1:30:04 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		Dont know if this is the same thing.

Master and I were black water rafting, in the cave we came to a point where we had to literally jump from a waterfall. I was a bit scared and hesitated for a moment, but then although Master didnt say anything, I heard his voice inside my head telling me to jump, so I did.
I'm strange I know

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RE: Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/30/2006 1:35:44 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Perhaps there are some psychologists on this site that would know more about this than me but there have been some well known psychological expriments showing people will watch horrendous events happening and refuse to believe what their eyes are telling them because they don't want to believe what they are seeing. People will also follow orders that lead to devastating results because they have an inbuilt refusal to question their superiors. We all like to think we will do the right thing but evidence shows that few of us will. The fact is we are all subject to our conditioning and there is an inertia in overcoming our conditioning.

My googling has failed me but hopefully there are a few people more knowledgeable than me in regard to this.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/30/2006 1:36:37 PM >

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RE: Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/30/2006 1:44:46 PM   
texguy98


Posts: 71
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline 		When I hear a nerf gun being cocked in the office, I duck ;) 

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RE: Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/30/2006 2:06:54 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Scary - i just wrote to my Master today about this very subject.  Only what i wrote about was emotional instinct.  my entire life i have had to rely on my core gut feelings to protect myself.  Until Master came into my life, i could not depend on anyone to look out for my best interest.  i relied on my own "fight or flight" instincts (which were not always so good) for survival in an abusive upbringing and in a cruel marriage.  These instincts have been hard to shed.

i began a post recently about want vs. need.  i had recently gone through an experience where my core gut instincts told me i needed something (on an emotional level) which i was not receiving.  i reacted to it.  Not so gracefully, i must say.  Taking a few steps back, i could see where by the way i reacted, i was relying on my idea of what was best for me (an emotional reaction based on my core instinct) rather than what he determined was best.  For me, this was a lesson in ultimate acceptance of his will, and to surrender deep emotional response and reactions to him.  Where i had instinctively relied on myself to know what was best for me, i have learned (and been conditioned) to rely on him for that, as he sees the bigger picture.

So, this is not a physical example, but an emotional one.


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RE: Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/30/2006 2:23:00 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		absolutely!

hit men would kill someone and practice court drills and  pass lie detector tests with even the most tenacious interogators.   it can  actually be very powerful.


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RE: Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/30/2006 4:08:54 PM   
MissyRane


Posts: 1032
Joined: 5/11/2005
Status: offline 		I don't remember in which case or whatever..the way tormentors are trained into torture people...they maybe start outside the building as guards..then after a while when they've gotten used to the environment they're brought inside..after being used to the screams they get closer and become guards....after having stayed that way then they're brought closer to the doors of the "torment room" or wherever..then later they're brought inside as guards if something gets out of hand in there..when they've become immune to all of this it's much easier for them to become tormentors themselves..
..isn't this all about becoming immune to things/situations..?

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RE: Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/30/2006 5:32:49 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline 		I remember once years ago when I had dropped my owner off somewhere for some purpose.  And as I drove off, I heard him distinctly say "stop"and instantly stopped my car and looked over to him.  What I realized a few minutes later was that he was saying it to his daughter who was trying to wander off into traffic, not to me.

C~


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RE: Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/30/2006 6:01:51 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: texguy98

When I hear a nerf gun being cocked in the office, I duck ;) 


Ever gone face down in a public place like shopping mall when a car back fired ????? or automatically unholstered a weapon automatically as a reflex action ??


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

absolutely!

hit men would kill someone and practice court drills and  pass lie detector tests with even the most tenacious interogators.   it can  actually be very powerful.



Professionalls in my former trade are all trained to react in ways which defy many instinctual reactions. Also people are often trained/conditioned to react inspecific ways to enhance instinctual reactions.  Yep life can be fun and darned embarrasing too at times


< Message edited by IronBear -- 3/30/2006 6:06:58 PM >

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RE: Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/31/2006 2:34:15 AM   
fldrkhorse


Posts: 158
Joined: 11/5/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		This is an interesting concept. One of my hard limits is obedience, immediately and without question. The reasons for this is 1. I am non confrontational and don't want to spend the next hour/days arguing and /or explaining. All explanations come in time, not necessarily at that moment.
 
2. Disobedience, in any form, is a barrier to training which is done in stages. This level of trust takes time to build and is learned, as many subs seek attention and choose disobedience to get that need met. There are also many subs that classify themselves as "brats" (just read the profiles) which also is a barrier to obedience.
 
In my opinion the submissive nature is natural. Obedience is learned.

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RE: Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/31/2006 2:39:27 AM   
texguy98


Posts: 71
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: texguy98

When I hear a nerf gun being cocked in the office, I duck ;) 


Ever gone face down in a public place like shopping mall when a car back fired ????? or automatically unholstered a weapon automatically as a reflex action ??



Yes, actually :) Well, except the weapon part. I don't conceal carry (Esp. not in California!!). I wasn't a solider, or in war, or anything like that but I did grow up in some pretty rough neighborhoods. In my neighborhood, if you heard what sounded like a gunshot, you either ducked or ran :) I still occasionaly have that reaction when I hear a loud bang, but I tend to try to control it more.

Sorry if this post is incoherent :) I'm up pretty late tonight :)

Tex

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RE: Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/31/2006 2:48:36 AM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		my instincts act with out me acting.  i usually think super fast at times like that. 

but then again i also do alot of actions with out thinking.  There are alot of times where i have just "obeyed" with out thinking.  i can usually tell by his tone of voice, or his tone of command how impertinent it is to obey quickly. 

If he told me freeze, i would freeze as i know he'd have a good damn reason for freezing and if i didnt something unpleasant would happen.  Say for example he knew a tire would get blown out cos of something in the road and if i moved in either direction the car would hit me but if i stayed still it would miss me.  He wouldnt command me to get runned over.  i would know its for my safety.  But then again, i trust him completely with my phtysical safety and know its a top priotrity for him.  i know, truely like in my soul know, that he wouldnt let anything bad happen and in the heat of the moment type danger i would trust his logic over my emotions..  Even though my instincts have saved me alot in the past.  i know with him, i am safe. i do not have to think twice about my safety when i am with him.  Basically when it comes to my safety and "danger" my instinct IS to trust himi.

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RE: Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/31/2006 3:17:19 AM   
knottywilliam


Posts: 1
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What an interesting question.  For me my instincts are to be submissive, but i am now struggling to overcome a lifetime of conditioning to be vanilla.  i am successful in my professional and social life, as far as mainstream society goes, which all of us to varying degrees have been conditioned or "encouraged" to try and achieve.  But this is not where my heart truly lies.  i know that i will require reprograming to rid myself of this, another round of conditioning but this time hopefully not on society's terms but on those of  a Dominant "someone" that i trust, admire and fear.

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RE: Instinct vs Conditioning - 3/31/2006 6:23:55 AM   
masochistecstacy


Posts: 41
Joined: 2/20/2005
Status: offline 		I think it just really all depends. When I'm at work, we have a bell by the door for customers to ring if we did well. I'm so conditioned now that whenever I hear a bell ring, I have to stop myself from crying out "Thank you!" -_-; As for instinct in the Master-ish sense... Well, I'm kind of a bratty submissive. I tease my Love a lot, and when He finally decides to put a stop to it, He- well, His voice changes, and just immediately I can tell to stop. Not really conditioning, because even the first time He used that voice on me, I knew. That seems liek a sort of instinct to me. Or maybe I'm just completely wrong. *chuckles* It's very possible.

< Message edited by masochistecstacy -- 3/31/2006 6:25:55 AM >

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