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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/10/2010 5:35:19 PM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
True - I Iike the chivalrous knight image and it works for me to an extent.  But only an extent.  In those myths the knight undergoes those ordeals with gritted teeth as means towards an end - saving his Lady, snatching the potion from the dragon's lair, whatever.  He doesn't get turned on by being hurt during these trials  and it's never the Lady, herself, who is inflicting those hurts upon him. 


Actually, the macho "saves the day" take on knightly chivalry is very much modern.  If you look closely at the actual literature, not the modern interpretations, you'll see a very strong cultural slant towards what is essentially hair-shirt masochism in chivalry, and knights enduring tests of suffering and humiliation inflicted more or less directly by their ladies.  Sometimes by their lords as well.  Japanese samurai culture also had an interesting take on it, though you'll much more often see those kinds of tests of admirable loyalty being inflicted man to man.  Lots of nifty homoerotic themes.


quote:

A knight goes down on his knees to his Lady, just as a slave does - but the difference between a knight and a slave is always clear.  Or, at least, I can't think of a myth offhand where that hasn't been the case.


Read more of the original classics, the obscure ones, for a more scholarly perspective on knightly chivalry and the origins of romantic love, then move over East a ways and check out the origins of the samurai class and its values.  Complex and fascinating stuff, and it may offer some insight on positive historical role models for the self respecting male submissive.

I don't have the cites handy, but it wasn't uncommon for a knightly sort to proclaim that his love made him a slave to his Lady, and to boast of the debasing things he had done or would be willing to do for her sake.  A slightly related example from a much later (Elizabethan) era is the notion of a gentleman putting his fine silk cloak down into the mud for his lady to walk upon.  It was a lot more extreme a few dynasties earlier.


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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/10/2010 5:58:20 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
Actually, the macho "saves the day" take on knightly chivalry is very much modern.  If you look closely at the actual literature, not the modern interpretations, you'll see a very strong cultural slant towards what is essentially hair-shirt masochism in chivalry, and knights enduring tests of suffering and humiliation inflicted more or less directly by their ladies.  Sometimes by their lords as well.  Japanese samurai culture also had an interesting take on it, though you'll much more often see those kinds of tests of admirable loyalty being inflicted man to man.  Lots of nifty homoerotic themes.


OK, LadyN, I'll look out for these.  I can't say that I feel greatly enthusiastic, though.  Am I likely to come across stories of knights being turned on by their suffering?  These stories smack of social, not sexual, masochism to me.

For me, it's in a sense much simpler.  What is the 'holy grail'?  It's a feeling.  Perhaps, for a sub, it might be 'the ultimate sub-space'.  What trials are there along the way to that?  All sorts: many are internal, many are external. 

When someone says to himself not just 'I want to feel that good', but 'I deserve to feel that good' - then the 'dragons' begin to take on a much clearer shape.  You gain a lot of one type of self-respect by consciously chucking away another sort of self-respect.  In the process you realise that that second sort of self respect wasn't the real thing and never really mattered in the first place.

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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/11/2010 12:19:06 AM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Am I likely to come across stories of knights being turned on by their suffering?  These stories smack of social, not sexual, masochism to me.


We're talking about old manuscripts and scholarly commentary on them, so the answer is no, it's not going to be explicitly sexual or kinky.  But if you read between the lines, you will see a consistent theme of "suffering in the name of Love" and ordeals, trials, suffering and humiliation inflicted more or less directly by a Lady on her knight.  It makes for very interesting reading, especially if you imagine what the bedroom relationship might have been like under those circumstances and with those attitudes.

quote:

When someone says to himself not just 'I want to feel that good', but 'I deserve to feel that good' - then the 'dragons' begin to take on a much clearer shape.  You gain a lot of one type of self-respect by consciously chucking away another sort of self-respect.  In the process you realise that that second sort of self respect wasn't the real thing and never really mattered in the first place.


Then you already know the answer to the koan of dignity in humility, and it is the sacred paradox.  Sometimes the sound of one hand clapping may well have to be on your ass cheeks. 


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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/11/2010 3:02:06 PM   
ElanSubdued


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quote:

undergroundsea:
Every time I have met a mistress, she began to love me even more than her shoes.


Bad boy.

*slap*
*slap*

I'm all for expressing fantasies in BDSM, but the OP came here looking for a serious answer.  More than her shoes?  Yeah, right.  Clearly you've been reading waaaaay too much Internet porn. :-)

E.

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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/11/2010 3:10:32 PM   
PeonForHer


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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/11/2010 4:24:47 PM   
dreamerdreaming


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Love and use are not mutually exclusive, OP. They can coexist rather well, each making the other ever more yummy, in an escalating cycle of pleasure and fulfillment.

Just sayin'.



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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/11/2010 4:43:44 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming

Fast reply:

Love and use are not mutually exclusive, OP. They can coexist rather well, each making the other ever more yummy, in an escalating cycle of pleasure and fulfillment.

Just sayin'.




To be honest, I've only got far enough to accept that as an article of faith.  I still can't, quite, wrap my head around how it works in a dominant's mind.  I figure that I never will, completely, though, for the excellent reason that I'm not a dominant and just not hard-wired that way.  All I really know, so far, is that enough dominants - dominants, like yourself, who I respect and trust - have said it vehemently enough and often enough for me to believe it. 

I think that those subs who turn up on this forum and talk of being 'lowly worms' who are 'worth nothing' need to grasp that point most of all.  A sub who despises himself won't attract a femdom any more than he'll attract a vanilla.  He has to learn how not to despise himself.

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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/11/2010 4:54:41 PM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Am I likely to come across stories of knights being turned on by their suffering?  These stories smack of social, not sexual, masochism to me.


We're talking about old manuscripts and scholarly commentary on them, so the answer is no, it's not going to be explicitly sexual or kinky.  But if you read between the lines, you will see a consistent theme of "suffering in the name of Love" and ordeals, trials, suffering and humiliation inflicted more or less directly by a Lady on her knight.  It makes for very interesting reading, especially if you imagine what the bedroom relationship might have been like under those circumstances and with those attitudes.

quote:

When someone says to himself not just 'I want to feel that good', but 'I deserve to feel that good' - then the 'dragons' begin to take on a much clearer shape.  You gain a lot of one type of self-respect by consciously chucking away another sort of self-respect.  In the process you realise that that second sort of self respect wasn't the real thing and never really mattered in the first place.


Then you already know the answer to the koan of dignity in humility, and it is the sacred paradox.  Sometimes the sound of one hand clapping may well have to be on your ass cheeks. 



The ideal/idea/theme of men suffering for women and women even enjoying it on some level is more common than many people may think. And as LadyNTrainer points out, it's not sexual necessarily.  

For an example, look at the way teenage girls treat teenage boys in "relationships."  Everything between breaking up with them just to make them cry to letting them fight the captain on the football team  :)

Akasha


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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/11/2010 5:12:04 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		Well, one way you know that you've grasped a real, strong, healthy rose is by the blood that its thorns draw, Akasha. 

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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/11/2010 9:16:15 PM   
AlexandraLynch


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Status: offline 		Oh, I love my subs.

I was in bed with the one today, and kissed him, slid down his body to the arch of his ribs, and said throatily, "I love you so much I must eat you up".  And he went home with bite marks.

Dominance comes naturally, but topping is a gift of love. Consequently, I only top people I love.  I can have sex with anyone. But beating someone makes me fall dangerously and passionately in love with them, and so I have to be careful who I beat.


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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/11/2010 10:05:55 PM   
LPslittleclip


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Status: offline 		my Mistress does love me as i Her. now pro Doms not nessacarly do but then it is a transaction. now when i started out i was not looking for a mistress but a play partner. now i am proud to say i am owned by my mistress and it is a very loving relationship

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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/11/2010 11:21:08 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		That answer depends on the individuals involved and the relationship dynamics.

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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/12/2010 1:41:29 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LPslittleclip

my Mistress does love me as i Her. now pro Doms not nessacarly do but then it is a transaction. now when i started out i was not looking for a mistress but a play partner. now i am proud to say i am owned by my mistress and it is a very loving relationship
Little clip from what I know of LP,gleaned from thes fora and private messages...you are one lucky slave type....we should all be so fortunate to fall under the spell of one with Her bearing.

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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/12/2010 3:24:58 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: LPslittleclip

my Mistress does love me as i Her. now pro Doms not nessacarly do but then it is a transaction. now when i started out i was not looking for a mistress but a play partner. now i am proud to say i am owned by my mistress and it is a very loving relationship
Little clip from what I know of LP,gleaned from thes fora and private messages...you are one lucky slave type....we should all be so fortunate to fall under the spell of one with Her bearing.

Very kind of you to say, mike.  Still, it should be noted that he's the one who has to put up with Me.  LOL.


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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/12/2010 3:47:15 AM   
MsStarlett


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

See if they made chocolate shoes - the human race would die out.  No woman would look at a man ever again.


Sorry to burst your bubble sweetie, they DO make chocolate shoes.  You're all doomed.

http://shoes.about.com/od/shoes_gifts/ss/chocolate_shoes.htm


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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/12/2010 2:44:31 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		Chocolate shoes, must not look, must walk away...

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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/12/2010 3:44:28 PM   
slavekal


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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/12/2010 4:07:52 PM   
PeonForHer


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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/12/2010 7:32:07 PM   
slavekal


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Status: offline 		I don't think that is possible.  But I am glad for you.

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RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? - 3/12/2010 7:43:33 PM   
ElanSubdued


Posts: 1511
Status: offline 		PeonForHer,

quote:

See if they made chocolate shoes - the human race would die out.  No woman would look at a man ever again.


Actually, if they made chocolate shoes, I'd become a shoe fetishist.  Just sayin'. :-)

E.

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