RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (Full Version)

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ElanSubdued -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/12/2010 7:47:16 PM)

Lady Pact,

quote:

LadyPact:
Very kind of you to say, mike.  Still, it should be noted that he's the one who has to put up with Me.  LOL.


In this little, virtual world here on Collar Me, we *all* have to put up with You.  And, this is very much a pleasure. [;)]

Elan.




rockin1632 -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/13/2010 6:12:51 AM)

I am getting into the life style of being a slave. I have a wonderful mistress and I'm learning what the whole thing is about. I have not been fully understanding of my mistress and after reading these posts I'm now realizing the true relationship. I do enjoy the feeling of belonging to my mistress but I now know there is a true relationship and life long commitment...thanks to all who posted on this subject.




Wheldrake -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/13/2010 12:39:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
True - I Iike the chivalrous knight image and it works for me to an extent.  But only an extent.  In those myths the knight undergoes those ordeals with gritted teeth as means towards an end - saving his Lady, snatching the potion from the dragon's lair, whatever.  He doesn't get turned on by being hurt during these trials  and it's never the Lady, herself, who is inflicting those hurts upon him. 


Actually, the macho "saves the day" take on knightly chivalry is very much modern.  If you look closely at the actual literature, not the modern interpretations, you'll see a very strong cultural slant towards what is essentially hair-shirt masochism in chivalry, and knights enduring tests of suffering and humiliation inflicted more or less directly by their ladies.  Sometimes by their lords as well.  Japanese samurai culture also had an interesting take on it, though you'll much more often see those kinds of tests of admirable loyalty being inflicted man to man.  Lots of nifty homoerotic themes.



Are there any specific pieces of "actual literature" that you would recommend as a starting point? I'm very interested in the idea of an analogy between knightly chivalry and submission in a BDSM sense, and I've even toyed with the idea of writing a novella based on this theme. Like Peon, however, I've always been a bit skeptical about the supposed similarities. It's been many years since I read the Morte D'Arthur, but I don't remember too much in the way of hair-shirt masochism - mostly knights drawing their swords and cleaving each other unto the brain-pan, or sometimes unto the paps if they got a particularly good stroke in.

My impression of courtly love has always been that, when the ladies put their knights through ordeals, this was less about wanting to see them suffer than wanting to see how much they were willing to risk and endure for the sake of love. It was more of a testing regime than an exercise in sadism. Or am I misunderstanding?





PeonForHer -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/13/2010 1:27:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

It was more of a testing regime than an exercise in sadism.


That's what I've always felt ( and nicely encapsulated, Wheldrake)  And if it's that, one doesn't need any history or myths at all to see that the principal's still being put into practice.  Every time I push a weight to my limit in the gym the thought's not far from my mind.  Given what LNT does for a living, I suspect she knows this particular example of a 'testing regime' better than most . . . .




VaguelyCurious -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/13/2010 2:04:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Every time I push a weight to my limit in the gym the thought's not far from my mind.  Given what LNT does for a living, I suspect she knows this particular example of a 'testing regime' better than most . . . .


That's a testing regime imposed on men by men, though. Muscles don't seem to be as big of a thing for women as they are for men, as far as I can tell...




Wheldrake -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/13/2010 2:07:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

It was more of a testing regime than an exercise in sadism.


That's what I've always felt ( and nicely encapsulated, Wheldrake)  And if it's that, one doesn't need any history or myths at all to see that the principal's still being put into practice.  Every time I push a weight to my limit in the gym the thought's not far from my mind.  Given what LNT does for a living, I suspect she knows this particular example of a 'testing regime' better than most . . . .


Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if LNT is the kind of fair lady who knows how to test a bold young knight in all sorts of ways, many of them intense, difficult and decidedly uncomfortable.




PeonForHer -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/13/2010 2:16:13 PM)

 . . .  And ways that, despite her being a fair lady, are very unfair, too. ;-)




PeonForHer -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/13/2010 2:18:30 PM)

Not muscles per se, VC - but fitness, I'd say.




VaguelyCurious -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/13/2010 2:24:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Not muscles per se, VC - but fitness, I'd say.


So you couldn't achieve fitness without 'pushing a weight to your limit'?




PeonForHer -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/13/2010 2:31:11 PM)

I could, but I've found that the way I do it is actually the easier way, believe it or not . . . .




VaguelyCurious -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/13/2010 2:33:49 PM)

Ok. Fair enough :-)




LadyNTrainer -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/13/2010 3:57:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake
Are there any specific pieces of "actual literature" that you would recommend as a starting point? I'm very interested in the idea of an analogy between knightly chivalry and submission in a BDSM sense, and I've even toyed with the idea of writing a novella based on this theme. Like Peon, however, I've always been a bit skeptical about the supposed similarities. It's been many years since I read the Morte D'Arthur, but I don't remember too much in the way of hair-shirt masochism - mostly knights drawing their swords and cleaving each other unto the brain-pan, or sometimes unto the paps if they got a particularly good stroke in.


Having mentioned it, I really should in all fairness do the research necessary to properly cite it.  Unfortunately my university days are behind me by a few years, and I no longer have access to the libraries in which I found the works that originally impressed me with the strong themes I was discussing.  Nor do I remember specific titles.  Probably the quickest way to get there from here would be to find and bother a net-accessible medieval literature specialist, asking for suggestions on where to start in your research on those subjects.  If you can't find one, I can, but it's a "vanilla" connection so I wouldn't tell them that you were referred on CollarMe.  LOL 

Do keep in mind that we're talking about a pretty broad historical period here.  Arthurian literature is definitely not the be-all and end-all of chivalry.


quote:

My impression of courtly love has always been that, when the ladies put their knights through ordeals, this was less about wanting to see them suffer than wanting to see how much they were willing to risk and endure for the sake of love. It was more of a testing regime than an exercise in sadism. Or am I misunderstanding?


Yes, that was the general theme.  What I found interesting is the prevalence of it.




LadyNTrainer -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/13/2010 3:58:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
So you couldn't achieve fitness without 'pushing a weight to your limit'?


Training to failure has both its adherents and critics.  It's a technique I use at times with myself and with my clients, but it's not necessarily effective in all situations.  In most situations it's probably counterproductive.  But this isn't a weight lifting thread so I'll quit topic-jacking.




MsHValentine -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/13/2010 4:27:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cdn1slvnlvr

Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them?





Using them is loving them.




PeonForHer -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/13/2010 4:36:39 PM)

Just as no leading politician says anything like that, I'm happy.  [;)]




Andalusite -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/13/2010 8:54:01 PM)

Peon, this didn't go into detail about the "ordeals" but it does seem to fit with what LNT is saying.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://cla.calpoly.edu/~dschwart/engl513/courtly/courtly.htm
The "courtly love" relationship is modelled on the feudal relationship between a knight and his liege lord. The knight serves his courtly lady (love service) with the same obedience and loyalty which he owes to his liege lord. She is in complete control of the love relationship, while he owes her obedience and submission (a literary convention that did not correspond to actual practice!) The knight's love for the lady inspires him to do great deeds, in order to be worthy of her love or to win her favor. Thus "courtly love" was originally construed as an ennobling force whether or not it was consummated, and even whether or not the lady knew about the knight's love or loved him in return.





Wheldrake -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/14/2010 3:01:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake
Are there any specific pieces of "actual literature" that you would recommend as a starting point? I'm very interested in the idea of an analogy between knightly chivalry and submission in a BDSM sense, and I've even toyed with the idea of writing a novella based on this theme. Like Peon, however, I've always been a bit skeptical about the supposed similarities. It's been many years since I read the Morte D'Arthur, but I don't remember too much in the way of hair-shirt masochism - mostly knights drawing their swords and cleaving each other unto the brain-pan, or sometimes unto the paps if they got a particularly good stroke in.


Having mentioned it, I really should in all fairness do the research necessary to properly cite it.  Unfortunately my university days are behind me by a few years, and I no longer have access to the libraries in which I found the works that originally impressed me with the strong themes I was discussing.  Nor do I remember specific titles.  Probably the quickest way to get there from here would be to find and bother a net-accessible medieval literature specialist, asking for suggestions on where to start in your research on those subjects.  If you can't find one, I can, but it's a "vanilla" connection so I wouldn't tell them that you were referred on CollarMe.  LOL 

Do keep in mind that we're talking about a pretty broad historical period here.  Arthurian literature is definitely not the be-all and end-all of chivalry.



Well, I managed to dig up a page with a couple of selections from Chretien de Troyes that seem to more or less fit the bill:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1170chretien-lancelot.html

The context isn't totally clear, but Sir Lancelot is apparently battling through various obstacles in an effort to reach Queen Guinevere. He resists the seductive blandishments of another fair damsel (who orders the knights of her household to attack him, for good measure), and afterwards crawls across a bridge in the inconvenient shape of a giant sword with a sharp, upturned edge. He removes the armour on his hands and feet, seemingly to get a better grip, and Chretien says:

"He will be in a sorry state when he reaches the other side. He is going to support himself with his bare hands and feet upon the sword, which was sharper than a scythe, for he had not kept on his feet either sole or upper or hose. But he felt no fear of wounds upon his hands or feet; he preferred to maim himself rather than to fall from the bridge and be plunged in the water from which he could never escape. In accordance with this determination, he passes over with great pain and agony, being wounded in the hands, knees, and feet. But even this suffering is sweet to him: for Love, who conducts and leads him on, assuages and relieves the pain."

This certainly sounds like the harsher side of the courtly love tradition - not entirely my cup of tea, but still a fascinating Mediaeval picture of male humility, devotion and self-sacrifice.





LadyNTrainer -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (3/14/2010 9:24:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake
"In accordance with this determination, he passes over with great pain and agony, being wounded in the hands, knees, and feet. But even this suffering is sweet to him: for Love, who conducts and leads him on, assuages and relieves the pain."


Yeah, that's an excellent example of what struck me about this type of literature when I was reading it.  I found a ton of stuff with this kind of theme, and it made me go, "Hmmm, that sounds pretty much like seriously sadistic/kinky femdom to me."  Also romantic and noble and lovely.  ;)




SlaveSubtoserve -> RE: Do mistresses love their slaves, or just use them? (4/17/2010 6:27:47 PM)

really not much different from vanilla land where most couples love each other as husband and wife or bf and gf and no doubt very much for the utility of said functions to each other espec over time.




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