RE: Capitalism

RE: Capitalism (Full Version)

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windchymes -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 9:13:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife So when a company has a team of legal consultants who put together a document meant to protect the company you expect an average person to read and comprehend all they are agreeing to without the benefit of their own legal team? I know this is directed at Jeff, but I'm going to jump in anyway.....if a contract's terms are so important that the writers of it need a legal team, then you bet your sweet ass I'm going to have a lawyer of my own going over it before I sign it. Duh.

Musicmystery -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 9:15:13 AM)
Then the transaction cost of doing many common things---car loans, changes to your credit card agreement---are going to rapidly rise, as you'll be taking time for and spending money on frequent legal advice.

windchymes -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 9:15:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery I'm amazed at how often college students--and professors--fall for phishing scams. It's true people just don't think things through. Aw, Tim, didn't you read the banners about not sending money to Nigeria??? [;)]

Musicmystery -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 9:17:09 AM)
In these cases it's giving people enough to let them raid accounts. I'm continually stunned that it works on people. Should they be smarter? Yes. Would I support legislation to prevent it? Yes.

windchymes -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 9:23:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Then the transaction cost of doing many common things---car loans, changes to your credit card agreement---are going to rapidly rise, as you'll be taking time for and spending money on frequent legal advice. I read those letters from the credit card companies about all the changes and plan to stay as debt-free as I am right now. Fortunately, I choose to live a simpler life than most and don't foresee needing "frequent legal advice." I maybe be misunderstanding your intent, but I don't think your alternative is foregoing legal advice and just blythely signing contracts? Legal requirements or not, maybe it's my profession...but one of the basic tenets of my profession is CYA or Cover Your Ass. I am just appalled at the idea of signing any contract or any piece of documentation of anything without verifying it's accuracy and fully understanding what is says.

windchymes -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 9:25:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery In these cases it's giving people enough to let them raid accounts. I'm continually stunned that it works on people. Should they be smarter? Yes. Would I support legislation to prevent it? Yes. As would I. But I still would protect myself.

rulemylife -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 9:27:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife So when a company has a team of legal consultants who put together a document meant to protect the company you expect an average person to read and comprehend all they are agreeing to without the benefit of their own legal team? I know this is directed at Jeff, but I'm going to jump in anyway.....if a contract's terms are so important that the writers of it need a legal team, then you bet your sweet ass I'm going to have a lawyer of my own going over it before I sign it. Duh. So you are telling me that you have your lawyer review every agreement you sign, whether it is with a credit card company, your local cable company, your internet service provider, or for that matter, the agreement you signed off on when you checked the box to abide by Collarme's TOS?

Musicmystery -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 9:30:16 AM)
As I told you earlier, I don't think anyone here is arguing against that. It's an obvious point.

Jeffff -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 9:32:50 AM)
No, I just read it. About 20 years ago was when I first became aware that a credit card company can and will raise your interest rate if you are late on ANY of your bills. I learned that by reading the agreement. Jeff

windchymes -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 9:33:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife So when a company has a team of legal consultants who put together a document meant to protect the company you expect an average person to read and comprehend all they are agreeing to without the benefit of their own legal team? I know this is directed at Jeff, but I'm going to jump in anyway.....if a contract's terms are so important that the writers of it need a legal team, then you bet your sweet ass I'm going to have a lawyer of my own going over it before I sign it. Duh. So you are telling me that you have your lawyer review every agreement you sign, whether it is with a credit card company, your local cable company, your internet service provider, or for that matter, the agreement you signed off on when you checked the box to abide by Collarme's TOS? No, I'm saying I would have a lawyer review any one that I didn't understand. Are you saying you sign contracts that you don't understand?

Musicmystery -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 9:37:01 AM)
wind, you are deliberately twisting things around. Stop it. We have enough nutjobs here already.

windchymes -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 9:39:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff No, I just read it. About 20 years ago was when I first became aware that a credit card company can and will raise your interest rate if you are late on ANY of your bills. I learned that by reading the agreement. Jeff Exactly. This is how I found out that if you cancel your cell phone, cable or satellite service before the one or two-year contract is up, they will charge you a lot of money. When I leased an apartment, I read every page of that lease, too, before signing. Those Collar Me TOS, though......better call your consigliere.....[:D]

windchymes -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 9:42:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery wind, you are deliberately twisting things around. Stop it. We have enough nutjobs here already. Tim, I normally respect you, but I really resent the nutjob comment. I'm not twisting anything around, I'm telling you exactly how I live my life, defending my opinions and positions, and thought I'd have a little fun with you along the way with the Nigerian comment. I apologize for that, but will continue the rest, thank you.

rulemylife -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 9:43:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes Yes, I do, and yes, I have!!! I bought a house a year ago, and I at least skimmed through every single one of those 900 documents (it seemed like!) before signing them, and closing probably took an hour longer than most people. If I didn't understand a paragraph, I asked the agent to explain it. I don't sign ANY contract unless I've read it and understand it. And if you do, then you are being foolish. I don't advocate "let the buyer beware." I advocate "let the buyer be responsible." Bullshit! I try to take my time and review things that I consider important. My health insurance, my homeowner's insurance, my car insurance. You are trying to tell me you have thoroughly examined every document, written or online, that you have ever agreed to? That's just a plain lie. But you know what? As many hours as I have spent on the phone with these companies trying to get straight answers I still am in the dark about many areas regarding my coverage. And it is done on purpose. These contracts are meant to be ambiguous so the company has a fallback provision.

Musicmystery -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 9:45:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery wind, you are deliberately twisting things around. Stop it. We have enough nutjobs here already. Tim, I normally respect you, but I really resent the nutjob comment. I'm not twisting anything around, I'm telling you exactly how I live my life, defending my opinions and positions, and thought I'd have a little fun with you along the way with the Nigerian comment. I apologize for that, but will continue the rest, thank you. No, you are deliberately being dense. Clearly, you don't honestly think rule goes around signing things willy nilly he doesn't understand. If you DO think that, or if you didn't get that from the context of the posts, perhaps you should stop trusting your own judgment reading agreements. The charge stands. Resent it if you like.

windchymes -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 9:57:22 AM)
You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to life my life the way I've chosen. You can call bullshit all you want, but I'm not crying about having been screwed over in some contractual deal, either. (That wasn't to infer that you are....just that I myself have not) I'm not disagreeing with you about the companies trying to screw people over with their vagueness and other tactics. But I do read contracts and I walk away when I don't understand them. I dug through the three health insurance contracts that we were offered at my employer so thoroughly that I was able to explain some things to the HR rep that she didn't understand. And if you don't believe that, write me on the other side and I'll put you in contact with her.

windchymes -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 10:00:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery wind, you are deliberately twisting things around. Stop it. We have enough nutjobs here already. Tim, I normally respect you, but I really resent the nutjob comment. I'm not twisting anything around, I'm telling you exactly how I live my life, defending my opinions and positions, and thought I'd have a little fun with you along the way with the Nigerian comment. I apologize for that, but will continue the rest, thank you. No, you are deliberately being dense. Clearly, you don't honestly think rule goes around signing things willy nilly he doesn't understand. If you DO think that, or if you didn't get that from the context of the posts, perhaps you should stop trusting your own judgment reading agreements. The charge stands. Resent it if you like. And clearly rule doesn't think I take lawyers with me to obtain cell phones and buy cars, but I guess that's okay to ask. And since you obviously don't "get" my posts, enjoy them anyway. But keep your name calling and condescending comments to yourself, please. That stands, too.

Musicmystery -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 11:49:44 AM)
quote: And clearly rule doesn't think I take lawyers with me to obtain cell phones and buy cars, but I guess that's okay to ask. And since you obviously don't "get" my posts, enjoy them anyway. But keep your name calling and condescending comments to yourself, please. Most people don't do that, and it's a reasonable thing for him to ask. In fact, you're the only one I've ever heard of doing this. I specifically tagged you for a specific instance of deliberate obtuseness. Characterize that anyway you wish. But that's still gonna get called out. It's not a reasonable position, and we see enough of that here.

TreasureKY -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 11:59:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Most people don't do that, and it's a reasonable thing for him to ask. In fact, you're the only one I've ever heard of doing this. I specifically tagged you for a specific instance of deliberate obtuseness. Characterize that anyway you wish. But that's still gonna get called out. It's not a reasonable position, and we see enough of that here. It sounds to me as you're the one being obtuse. Wind has been very clear and reasonable in her posts. Her position is equally reasonable. Treasure (Who also takes personal responsibility for carefully reading anything I sign. If I don't understand it, I seek legal advice or walk away. It's not rocket science.)

Fellow -> RE: Capitalism (3/12/2010 12:03:27 PM)
The real question: why many Americans live like mindless zombies and have no idea what is going on around them?

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