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RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 9:13:36 AM   
windchymes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


So when a company has a team of legal consultants who put together a document meant to protect the company you expect an average person to read and comprehend all they are agreeing to without the benefit of their own legal team?



I know this is directed at Jeff, but I'm going to jump in anyway.....if a contract's terms are so important that the writers of it need a legal team, then you bet your sweet ass I'm going to have a lawyer of my own going over it before I sign it. Duh.

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 9:15:13 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Then the transaction cost of doing many common things---car loans, changes to your credit card agreement---are going to rapidly rise, as you'll be taking time for and spending money on frequent legal advice.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 9:15:45 AM   
windchymes


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Joined: 4/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm amazed at how often college students--and professors--fall for phishing scams.

It's true people just don't think things through.



Aw, Tim, didn't you read the banners about not sending money to Nigeria???

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 9:17:09 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		In these cases it's giving people enough to let them raid accounts.

I'm continually stunned that it works on people.

Should they be smarter? Yes.

Would I support legislation to prevent it?

Yes.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/12/2010 9:18:10 AM >

(in reply to windchymes)
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RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 9:23:04 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Then the transaction cost of doing many common things---car loans, changes to your credit card agreement---are going to rapidly rise, as you'll be taking time for and spending money on frequent legal advice.


I read those letters from the credit card companies about all the changes and plan to stay as debt-free as I am right now. Fortunately, I choose to live a simpler life than most and don't foresee needing "frequent legal advice."

I maybe be misunderstanding your intent, but I don't think your alternative is foregoing legal advice and just blythely signing contracts?

Legal requirements or not, maybe it's my profession...but one of the basic tenets of my profession is CYA or Cover Your Ass. I am just appalled at the idea of signing any contract or any piece of documentation of anything without verifying it's accuracy and fully understanding what is says.

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 9:25:27 AM   
windchymes


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Joined: 4/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

In these cases it's giving people enough to let them raid accounts.

I'm continually stunned that it works on people.

Should they be smarter? Yes.

Would I support legislation to prevent it?

Yes.




As would I. But I still would protect myself.

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 9:27:09 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


So when a company has a team of legal consultants who put together a document meant to protect the company you expect an average person to read and comprehend all they are agreeing to without the benefit of their own legal team?



I know this is directed at Jeff, but I'm going to jump in anyway.....if a contract's terms are so important that the writers of it need a legal team, then you bet your sweet ass I'm going to have a lawyer of my own going over it before I sign it. Duh.


So you are telling me that you have your lawyer review every agreement you sign, whether it is with a credit card company, your local cable company, your internet service provider, or for that matter, the agreement you signed off on when you checked the box to abide by Collarme's TOS?

(in reply to windchymes)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 9:30:16 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		As I told you earlier, I don't think anyone here is arguing against that. It's an obvious point.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 9:32:50 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		No, I just read it. About 20 years ago was when I first became aware that a credit card company can and will raise your interest rate if you are late on ANY of your bills. I learned that by reading the agreement.


Jeff

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RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 9:33:32 AM   
windchymes


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Joined: 4/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


So when a company has a team of legal consultants who put together a document meant to protect the company you expect an average person to read and comprehend all they are agreeing to without the benefit of their own legal team?



I know this is directed at Jeff, but I'm going to jump in anyway.....if a contract's terms are so important that the writers of it need a legal team, then you bet your sweet ass I'm going to have a lawyer of my own going over it before I sign it. Duh.


So you are telling me that you have your lawyer review every agreement you sign, whether it is with a credit card company, your local cable company, your internet service provider, or for that matter, the agreement you signed off on when you checked the box to abide by Collarme's TOS?



No, I'm saying I would have a lawyer review any one that I didn't understand. Are you saying you sign contracts that you don't understand?

< Message edited by windchymes -- 3/12/2010 9:34:02 AM >

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 9:37:01 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		wind, you are deliberately twisting things around.

Stop it. We have enough nutjobs here already.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 9:39:40 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

No, I just read it. About 20 years ago was when I first became aware that a credit card company can and will raise your interest rate if you are late on ANY of your bills. I learned that by reading the agreement.


Jeff


Exactly. This is how I found out that if you cancel your cell phone, cable or satellite service before the one or two-year contract is up, they will charge you a lot of money.

When I leased an apartment, I read every page of that lease, too, before signing.

Those Collar Me TOS, though......better call your consigliere.....

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 9:42:13 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

wind, you are deliberately twisting things around.

Stop it. We have enough nutjobs here already.


Tim, I normally respect you, but I really resent the nutjob comment. I'm not twisting anything around, I'm telling you exactly how I live my life, defending my opinions and positions, and thought I'd have a little fun with you along the way with the Nigerian comment. I apologize for that, but will continue the rest, thank you.

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 9:43:35 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

Yes, I do, and yes, I have!!! I bought a house a year ago, and I at least skimmed through every single one of those 900 documents (it seemed like!) before signing them, and closing probably took an hour longer than most people. If I didn't understand a paragraph, I asked the agent to explain it.

I don't sign ANY contract unless I've read it and understand it. And if you do, then you are being foolish.

I don't advocate "let the buyer beware." I advocate "let the buyer be responsible."


Bullshit!

I try to take my time and review things that I consider important.

My health insurance, my homeowner's insurance, my car insurance.

You are trying to tell me you have thoroughly examined every document, written or online, that you have ever agreed to?

That's just a plain lie.

But you know what?  As many hours as I have spent on the phone with these companies trying to get straight answers I still am in the dark about many areas regarding my coverage.

And it is done on purpose.

These contracts are meant to be ambiguous so the company has a fallback provision.


< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/12/2010 10:04:43 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 9:45:38 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

wind, you are deliberately twisting things around.

Stop it. We have enough nutjobs here already.


Tim, I normally respect you, but I really resent the nutjob comment. I'm not twisting anything around, I'm telling you exactly how I live my life, defending my opinions and positions, and thought I'd have a little fun with you along the way with the Nigerian comment. I apologize for that, but will continue the rest, thank you.


No, you are deliberately being dense.

Clearly, you don't honestly think rule goes around signing things willy nilly he doesn't understand.

If you DO think that, or if you didn't get that from the context of the posts, perhaps you should stop trusting your own judgment reading agreements.

The charge stands. Resent it if you like.


(in reply to windchymes)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 9:57:22 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to life my life the way I've chosen. You can call bullshit all you want, but I'm not crying about having been screwed over in some contractual deal, either. (That wasn't to infer that you are....just that I myself have not)

I'm not disagreeing with you about the companies trying to screw people over with their vagueness and other tactics. But I do read contracts and I walk away when I don't understand them. I dug through the three health insurance contracts that we were offered at my employer so thoroughly that I was able to explain some things to the HR rep that she didn't understand. And if you don't believe that, write me on the other side and I'll put you in contact with her.



_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 10:00:38 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

wind, you are deliberately twisting things around.

Stop it. We have enough nutjobs here already.


Tim, I normally respect you, but I really resent the nutjob comment. I'm not twisting anything around, I'm telling you exactly how I live my life, defending my opinions and positions, and thought I'd have a little fun with you along the way with the Nigerian comment. I apologize for that, but will continue the rest, thank you.


No, you are deliberately being dense.

Clearly, you don't honestly think rule goes around signing things willy nilly he doesn't understand.

If you DO think that, or if you didn't get that from the context of the posts, perhaps you should stop trusting your own judgment reading agreements.

The charge stands. Resent it if you like.




And clearly rule doesn't think I take lawyers with me to obtain cell phones and buy cars, but I guess that's okay to ask.

And since you obviously don't "get" my posts, enjoy them anyway. But keep your name calling and condescending comments to yourself, please. That stands, too.

< Message edited by windchymes -- 3/12/2010 10:01:26 AM >

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 11:49:44 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

And clearly rule doesn't think I take lawyers with me to obtain cell phones and buy cars, but I guess that's okay to ask.

And since you obviously don't "get" my posts, enjoy them anyway. But keep your name calling and condescending comments to yourself, please.


Most people don't do that, and it's a reasonable thing for him to ask. In fact, you're the only one I've ever heard of doing this.

I specifically tagged you for a specific instance of deliberate obtuseness. Characterize that anyway you wish.

But that's still gonna get called out. It's not a reasonable position, and we see enough of that here.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 11:59:37 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Most people don't do that, and it's a reasonable thing for him to ask. In fact, you're the only one I've ever heard of doing this.

I specifically tagged you for a specific instance of deliberate obtuseness. Characterize that anyway you wish.

But that's still gonna get called out. It's not a reasonable position, and we see enough of that here.


It sounds to me as you're the one being obtuse.  Wind has been very clear and reasonable in her posts. 

Her position is equally reasonable.

Treasure
(Who also takes personal responsibility for carefully reading anything I sign.  If I don't understand it, I seek legal advice or walk away.  It's not rocket science.)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Capitalism - 3/12/2010 12:03:27 PM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		The real question: why many Americans live like mindless zombies and have no idea what is going on around them?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 40
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