Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reconciliation to Pass Health Care Bill


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reconciliation to Pass Health Care Bill Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 8:35:03 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
As a supporter for the health industries federal welfare program funded though mandatory purchase of coverage it was best that you chose to be silent responding to those points.

You want to talk about the budget...
quote:

And they are entitled to their opinions.
Funny Taz - it's only the critical opinion number sources you have a problem with; their 'mission statement' has nothing to do with the numbers coming from the CBO

From your article. Can you explain how they determined these tax increases?
I'd refer you to the reference sources given. Disprove them with your own.

Don't forget, as noted - none of those numbers include the next batch of revenue reducing initiative contained in Obama's 'Cap & Trade' initiatives.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 8:37:04 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Corporate welfare at its finest. Imagine the outcry from the same Administration apologists if a Republican proposal demanded that each and every US citizen buy anything from an industry or be subject to fines and penalties!


And yet--that's what Republicans proposed in the early 90s.

Of course, they knew it would never come to pass. And that's their mission here--to block health care reform a priori.

Meanwhile, the costs to businesses, large and small, and to individuals, continue to rise.




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/12/2010 9:13:05 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 9:07:11 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

As a supporter for the health industries federal welfare program funded though mandatory purchase of coverage it was best that you chose to be silent responding to those points.

You want to talk about the budget...
quote:

And they are entitled to their opinions.
Funny Taz - it's only the critical opinion number sources you have a problem with; their 'mission statement' has nothing to do with the numbers coming from the CBO

From your article. Can you explain how they determined these tax increases?

I'd refer you to the reference sources given. Disprove them with your own.

Don't forget, as noted - none of those numbers include the next batch of revenue reducing initiative contained in Obama's 'Cap & Trade' initiatives.


Their mission statement shows thier leaning... and their interpretation of the numbers are influenced by such. The part i quoted you had no sources for reference, which is why i asked you where this information came from.

The ad, which portrays workers and businesses going through difficult times, says that "health care costs will go even higher" and that this will "[make] a tough economy even worse." These claims need context.The ad doesn�t specify which "health care costs" will increase. If that means premiums, it�s right � but only for some people. For those who get health care through their employer (and that�s most of the insured), the average premium wouldn�t change significantly, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Those employed by large firms would either see no change in the average premium cost or a decrease of up to 3 percent. But the average premium for those who purchase their insurance privately will go up 10 percent to 13 percent, according to CBO. The benefits for people in this market would also improve, and more than half of those buying their own insurance would receive subsidies, which would lower their costs substantially. The CBO estimated that about 14 million Americans would buy their own policies without the help of subsidies.If Employers for a Healthy Economy means overall federal spending for health care, it�s also right � for a while. CBO says that the "federal budgetary commitment to health care" would increase from 2010 through 2019 under this bill, to the tune of about $200 billion. But the provisions of the bill that decrease that commitment will grow faster than the provisions that increase it, meaning tha

Another group reading the CBO's numbers differently.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 9:43:59 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

Corporate welfare at its finest. Imagine the outcry from the same Administration apologists if a Republican proposal demanded that each and every US citizen buy anything from an industry or be subject to fines and penalties!


And yet--that's what Republicans proposed in the early 90s.

Of course, they knew it would never come to pass. And that's their mission here--to block health care reform a priori.

Meanwhile, the costs to businesses, large and small, and to individuals, continue to rise.
When is the bottom line rising cost to the consumer and private business ever gotten in the way of a good pay-back special interest, government welfare program for industry monoliths putting millions in the hands of legislators through PAC campaign contriputions?

You are absolutely correct. It points to Obama and the Democrats following another Republican initiative like Bush Stimulus II.

I didn't seek more validation for no distinction between the Administrations or Political Parties; but I appreciate you pointing it out.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 9:47:26 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
Nonetheless, the problem remains, and needs solutions, not dismissals.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 10:01:21 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Nonetheless, the problem remains, and needs solutions, not dismissals.


We agree again! Should we try for three in a row?

The current Bill isn't the solution needed.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 11:06:54 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Neither is tort reform, which is all that has been suggested by the opposing side, and which is included in the current bill.

Open to debate, no one brought anything to the table, except.. Scrap this bill... and.. tort reform.

Scrapping the bill will waste a years worth of work and push us back to the beginning... a beginning the opposition has declared from their very own beginning of this endevour will never see fruition.

So, what we have is one side fighting for something... and the other side fighting against that something to produce nothing, except lies and manipulations.

Gee.

Decisions decision.

I prefer something over nothing.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 11:45:50 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Nonetheless, the problem remains, and needs solutions, not dismissals.


We agree again! Should we try for three in a row?

The current Bill isn't the solution needed.



I actually do agree, but it's as close as we're going to get for quite some time.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 11:53:29 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
Your quote; "Neither is tort reform" coming in response my comment "current Bill isn't the solution needed"; indicates you also don't belief the current bill is the solution needed? Why be so obtuse?
quote:

I prefer something over nothing


Your "something" will increase insurance premiums, and as you point out - reduce the ability for an 'injured' party to be compensated.

It will set up 30 million, although the number varies depending on the agenda being considered, new customers to the health insurance industry who will be able to take advantage of monopolist State regulations set up through State legislators purchased through State level lobbyists and PAC organizations.

When the 'cash cow' consumer's milk runs dry - the insurance companies will throw up their hands and turn it all back over the government to bail them out, setting up the most expensive revenue draining entitlement program to date.

Reduced to "I prefer something over nothing" speaks to the lack of argument against the facts and reality of the weakness of this Bill and the fundamental truth that it does not address what was represented as the intent - low cost, universally available health care. Or, as it appears to be the case, has the agenda moved from that and now is a function of this Administration not loosing 'face'?

Either way - it's a bad Bill for the consumer, for private businesses, and for the country. It does however provide a big lift and increased health industry profits and executive bonuses in the short term; with no plan conveyed addressing costs born by the consumer. When those profits become known and are subject to legislation and more government intervention - they too, like every industry taken over or heavily regulated by Federal bureaucratic oversight, will fail and turn over the bones to the Fed. That's the "something" you support.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 12:03:03 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Actually, i have already said on more than one thread that i am not thrilled with this bill... and said it repeatedly. Second, its my preference to stop whats going on and allow the insurance companies to price themselves out of the market. Its happening, day by day. Corportate greed is winning. This bill will be passed.

With public option, the cost was to be roughly 12000 a year for a family.

Without, 18000.

An extra 6000 per family... my oh my... that is going to hurt many families.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 8:40:13 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

An interesting read.



I couldn't say, Tazzy.  I clicked the link this morning, and my 'puter proceeded to try and open at least 50 windows of the site.  I did see enough, before shutting down, to determine that it was a journal of medicine, offering an opinion.  They will be welcome, I'm sure, to offer their thoughts to the Court, when and more importantly IF this thing becomes law.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 8:59:30 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
Don't the American People get a say in any of this?
Why do I feel like they're doing it "to me" and not "for me?"
Why do I feel like I need a shower everytime I read the name, "Harry Reid?"

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 9:10:58 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
I don't know.

What have you been doing with your hairy reed?

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 10:41:05 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
I had no difficulty when i clicked on that link. But, im sorry if it disrupted your system. Here is the article in full... from the New England Journal of Medicine.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jack M. Balkin, J.D., Ph.D.

Once President Barack Obama and Democrats in Congress have passed a health care reform bill, conservative groups are likely to challenge parts of it as unconstitutional, arguing that it oversteps Congress’s powers. A key target will be the individual mandate, which is designed to coax uninsured persons into purchasing insurance.

The term “individual mandate” is misleading for two reasons. First, the law would not actually require all individuals to purchase insurance. The mandate would not apply to dependents, persons receiving Medicare or Medicaid, military families, persons living overseas, persons with religious objections, or persons who already get health insurance from their employers under a qualified plan.

Second, it is not actually a mandate. It is a tax, which people would not have to pay if they purchased health insurance. The House bill imposes a tax of 2.5% on adjusted gross income if a taxpayer is not part of a qualified health insurance program. The Senate bill imposes what is called an “excise tax” — a tax on transactions or events — or a “penalty tax” — a tax for failing to do something (e.g., filing your tax return promptly). The tax is levied for each month that an individual fails to pay premiums into a qualified health plan.

Congress has the power to pass legislation that falls within any of its powers enumerated in the Constitution. There are two obvious sources of congressional power. The first, described in the General Welfare Clause, is the power “to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States.” The second, laid out in the Commerce Clause, is the power “to regulate commerce . . . among the several states.”

The individual mandate is a tax. Does it serve the general welfare? The constitutional test is whether Congress could reasonably conclude that its taxing and spending programs promote the general welfare of the country.1 This test is easily satisfied. The new health care reform bill insures more people and prevents them from being denied insurance coverage because of preexisting conditions. Successful reform requires that uninsured persons — most of whom are younger and healthier than average — join the national risk pool; this will help to lower the costs of health insurance premiums nationally.

Taxing uninsured people helps to pay for the costs of the new regulations. The tax gives uninsured people a choice. If they stay out of the risk pool, they effectively raise other people’s insurance costs, and Congress taxes them to recoup some of the costs. If they join the risk pool, they do not have to pay the tax. A good analogy would be a tax on polluters who fail to install pollution-control equipment: they can pay the tax or install the equipment.

Because the textual argument for Congress’s authority under the General Welfare Clause is obvious and powerful, opponents have tried to argue that the tax is unconstitutional because it is a “direct” tax. Under the Constitution, “direct” taxes must be apportioned to state population. That is, if State A has twice as many people as State B, the amount of revenue collected from State A must be twice that collected from State B. Like most federal taxes, the individual mandate is not apportioned to state population.

The classic examples of direct taxes are taxes on real estate and capitation or “head” taxes on the general population, under which people are taxed no matter what they do. In one of the Supreme Court’s first cases, Hylton v. United States, Justice William Paterson held that if there is any doubt, taxes should be classified as indirect rather than direct.2

The individual mandate is not a direct tax. The House’s version is a tax on income. Under the Sixteenth Amendment, income taxes do not have to be apportioned, regardless of the source of the income. The Senate’s version is an excise or penalty tax. It is neither a tax on real estate nor a general tax on individuals. It is a tax on events: individuals who are not exempted are taxed for each month they do not pay premiums to a qualified plan.

If the individual mandate falls within Congress’s power to tax and spend, no other constitutional authority is necessary. However, Congress also has the power to impose the tax under the Commerce Clause. The test in this case is whether Congress could reasonably conclude that the economic activity it regulates has a substantial effect on interstate commerce when all individual instances of the regulated activity are added together. The Supreme Court says that economic activities include buying and selling, borrowing money, agriculture, services, manufacturing, and consumption.

Even if an activity is local and not economic, Congress can regulate it if it reasonably believes that doing so is necessary to make its regulation of commerce effective.3 (Under the Constitution, Congress has the power to make all regulations that are “necessary and proper” for carrying out its enumerated powers.)

In 1942, the Supreme Court held that Congress could regulate wheat grown for home consumption as part of a general regulation of farm production.4 People who grew wheat at home substituted it for wheat products they would otherwise purchase in the market; cumulatively, this practice had a substantial effect on interstate farm prices. Similarly, in 2005, in Gonzales v. Raich, the Court held that Congress could regulate marijuana grown for home consumption as part of a general ban on controlled substances, because Congress reasonably concluded that people would substitute homegrown marijuana for other marijuana purchased in black markets.3

The individual mandate taxes people who do not buy health insurance. Critics charge that these people are not engaged in any activity that Congress might regulate; they are simply doing nothing. This is not the case. Such people actually self-insure through various means. When uninsured people get sick, they rely on their families for financial support, go to emergency rooms (often passing costs on to others), or purchase over-the-counter remedies. They substitute these activities for paying premiums to health insurance companies. All these activities are economic, and they have a cumulative effect on interstate commerce. Moreover, like people who substitute homegrown marijuana or wheat for purchased crops, the cumulative effect of uninsured people’s behavior undermines Congress’s regulation — in this case, its regulation of health insurance markets. Because Congress believes that national health care reform won’t succeed unless these people are brought into national risk pools, it can regulate their activities in order to make its general regulation of health insurance effective.

One final argument against the individual mandate is that it violates the Fifth Amendment by allowing the government to take property without just compensation. “Takings” occur when the government seizes property from particular individuals; a familiar example is a local government’s taking of land by eminent domain. Ordinary income taxes and excise taxes that are levied on a large population and that regulate people’s behavior by taxing their income or consumption choices are not considered takings under the Constitution. The individual mandate is just such a tax — not a taking.

Although opponents will challenge the individual mandate in court, constitutional challenges are unlikely to succeed. The Supreme Court will probably not even consider the issue unless a federal court of appeals strikes the tax down. In that unlikely event, the Supreme Court will almost certainly uphold the tax, at least if it follows existing law. To strike down the individual mandate, it would have to reject decades of precedents. It is very unlikely that there are five votes on the current Court for staging such a constitutional revolution.


http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2764

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 11:11:03 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
Balkin...  Balkin...  Nope, I can't think of a Supreme Court Justice by that name.  As I recall, Bush II had no trouble finding lawyers who would give him an opinion that what his administration wanted to do was legal as well.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 11:18:15 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
Health care reform is mandatory. You will go kicking and screaming, dragged against your will and in a few years fro m now you will all be saying how much you supported the idea.

_____________________________



(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reco... - 3/12/2010 11:39:21 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
I agree health care reform is mandatory... lol

your preaching to the choir!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 37
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Reid Formally Notifies Republicans He Will Use Reconciliation to Pass Health Care Bill Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109