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RE: Intervening For An Employee - 3/13/2010 7:56:58 AM   
DomMeinCT


Posts: 2355
Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

You may want to speak to her as well.  If she's offended, she needs to show it.  It sounds like the guy thinks that he's being encouraged.



But let's say she isn't offended, and is only making conversation with you about this guy's behavior....

OP, do you want him coming in and doing it anyway now that you know what he's saying?  Do you want the possibility that other customers could be exposed to his words?

< Message edited by DomMeinCT -- 3/13/2010 7:57:30 AM >

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RE: Intervening For An Employee - 3/13/2010 9:08:49 AM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueEyedSubinDE

Because what you have is an employee who has reported - be it official or unofficial - sexual harrassment.



The OP is getting an awful lot of advice that really needs to come from someone who is familiar with the laws in the OP's state.  In some states, it's only sexual harrassment if it is coming from an employee; otherwise, it's maintaining a hostile work environment.  The procedures, laws, penalties and remedies are not necessarily the same.

In any case, I would probably tell the employee that I did not appreciate that sort of interaction in my business, so she did want to say something to him, or should I?

Cali


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RE: Intervening For An Employee - 3/13/2010 12:25:19 PM   
beej


Posts: 145
Joined: 1/24/2010
Status: offline 		hrm. i think what i'll do is give her another sexual harassment pamphlet and write up an incident report. it's a gas station, so i'm not all that worried about her shooting the shit with customers if she wants. i just don't want her feeling like she has to tolerate any kind of talk because he's a customer. when i walked in from lunch yesterday and saw them on the monitor, he was just standing on his side of the counter talking, and she was standing directly in front of him as well, though she could have retreated to one of two chairs to put some distance between them. as has been suggested, if she were angry or threatened, seems like she would have expressed anger instead of disdain.

lol, Granny won't be of any use 'cause she's nearly deaf.

thanks everyone for your input.

(in reply to CalifChick)
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RE: Intervening For An Employee - 3/13/2010 4:35:39 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Whatever you do, cover your own backside.

Write a memo (or a more formal letter) to all staff (or just her if she's the only one) to remind them of your policies as an employer, including the policy as regards sexual harassment by other staff and customers. Ensure staff are informed that you do not tolerate sexual harassment (et al) in the workplace and that they are under a duty to report it - formally (in writing) should they experience it, on which an investigation shall follow and appropriate remedial action taken - just as you are under a duty to take action should it come to light.

Are staff under such a duty? Absolutely, and just as they are also under a duty to report dangerous working conditions. Should they then fail to report then (in English law at least) there may be a degree of contributory negligence such that this mitigates or entirely extinguishes any claim against you as the employer. But, it is vital to ensure this duty is communicated clearly to them.

If you dont have an "employee handbook" or something similar incorporated into your employment contracts, which makes you compliant with employment law and mitigates your liabilities - importantly the onus is on you to show you took all reasonable precautions, exercised reasonable supervision and carried out all reasonable remedial action - then get one, and have staff sign to say they have received it, read it and understood it. Get someone to help you if needed, though there is "Employment Law for Small Businesses for Dummies" available, and this will guide you through what you need to do - you could even rope in your insurers to help perhaps, as its their potential losses this will mitigate.

As an aside, I would also check about your potential liabilities and insurance coverage as regards folks dropping by to play dominoes with grandma in the workplace. I would seriously doubt your insurance covers you for recreational activities for non staff and non customers like this, unless you have specifically advised it, and you owe a duty of care to both.

E


You have to remember this is a small family business (which we now find out is a gas station) in a small town in the south. No employee handbooks, employee contracts, nothing like that is going to come into play here. Based on what the OP says she saw on the video monitor, the employee isn't really all that offended by what the guy is saying either. Southern Belles may be all sweet and sugar, but they will also let you know in no uncertain terms if they find something offensive and put a stop to it.

A lot of those small one horse town businesses generate a great deal of business because of the small friendly atmosphere, i.e. gramma throwin her bones with a local guy, and if the OP (who I gather has not been involved for a long period of time) starts trying to bring in her "big city notions" it won't go over well.

There is also the fact that while everyone is talking about lawsuits, it is unlikely a local attorney would take on the case, as the business probably doesn't have a high enough value to make it worth his time (sad but true), along with the fact that the girl, as I said earlier in the thread, the girl said she didn't want the OP to intervene and at the end of the day this is a "he said/she said" type of situation which doesn't go far for a lawsuit.

Small businesses in small towns are not likely to be sued by employees or the local townspeople, it is counterproductive to the area.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: Intervening For An Employee - 3/14/2010 1:34:06 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		FR

If she can't successfully tell him to fuck off, to just get rid of him, especially if he is spending no money there we are more behind in our society. It means that might still makes right, and possibly that money talks. In other words I see the problem in the structure, not her particular posision in it.

T

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Intervening For An Employee - 3/14/2010 1:59:26 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Good advice in the above posts.

I add my voice to those of some other people who said the same: you do not know what this man said and says to her and you do need to know.

(in reply to beej)
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RE: Intervening For An Employee - 3/14/2010 5:24:40 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		i think your way of dealing is good enough based upon law. Give her the pamphlet, tell her that she has stated she doesn't want you involved but by law and by being her boss and friend you have a responsibility to make sure she doesn't feel she is working in an uncomfortable position.

Ask her if she would like you to intervene quietly because what you also don't want is for her Man to come up and start making trouble because she told him. Nor do you want her to tell other people and people presume you aren't doing anything -- if its a small town.

angel



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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Intervening For An Employee - 3/14/2010 5:42:10 AM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: beej
now i'm wondering if there's something more that i should do. she brought it up to me as a personal matter and not as an official complaint, so is it sexual harassment in a way that i'm supposed to act on? i feel that it is harassment in a way that she's not understanding, but i'm not sure how to get that through to her. then what if he comes in and does it again, am i not supposed to jump down his throat because she told me not to?


You can't decide what it is for her, but you can decide that you won't allow him to do his thing in your store.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
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(in reply to beej)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Intervening For An Employee - 3/14/2010 6:40:27 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Whilst it may be a small business in a small town, the employer owes the same duty of care as he would were this Megacorp Inc in Manhattan.

And here at least, if she wished to raise a complaint that the duty had been failed, then she could take it forward herself or find a specialist lawyer (even paralegal) on contingency to do it for her. Since its unlikely she'd want to go back to her job, or that the employer would want her back, his failure to take action to fulfil his duty of care could easily comprise constructive dismissal on top of the harassment, for a settlement running to more than enough to account for a year's salary in such a position.

And whilst I understand the small town mentality of not wanting to upset folks, and understand that perhaps nothing will ever come of any of this, it might and its to the possible liabilities that should lead to that one must look. The law does not stop at the town limits after all and takes no account of size or type of business but rather the breach, and in any case it is good practice to put policies and protections in place for the employer and employee so that everyone knows where they stand. In particular this can also help the employee to feel valued enough to show greater loyalty and commitment to a good employer.

All we are talking about here is pre-emptive action to ensure employer and employee understand their duties and rights. Here at least, an employee may take action where such information has not been provided and made part of the overall employment arrangements, presumably because employees otherwise should have no idea what their duties or rights might be, and regardless of the informal nature of that arrangement or the relationship, the presumption will be that the employer has definitely failed in his duty should he not have suitable policies and documentation in place, regardless of the size of his business.

Of course this must be translated into the particular legal situation in the jurisdiction, but legal risk management cannot be advised on the basis of informal arrangements between friends, when the legal situation is one of formal employment between contracting parties.

E

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RE: Intervening For An Employee - 3/14/2010 9:44:31 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Honestly, from a legal standpoint the situation isn't that deep. The employee stated she is having a customer hit on her, she has stated to him to stop. She also stated to the employer she didn't want him to get involved. The employer is taking the steps of giving her a sexual harassment pamphlet and writing an incident report. The employee also has to be careful that she isn't encouraging same by laughing during the situation etc thereby giving the customer encouragement to continue a concept of "harmless" flirting. The Employer also has to be careful he doesn't go overboard and make this a bigger issue than it is where the employee WON'T come tell him of inappropriate behavior due to she doesn't want him to make a big deal out of it. Which could make a not bad situation into a bad situation.

Whether or not you understand the small town mentality, you also have to realize all legal matters go through the same small town and what could be a simply issue of a guy being a jackass could become a huge battle, which doesn't always ring well for the employer, employee or the customer.

Based on my experience with sexual harassment cases, the employer is doing the correct thing for the situation at this time -- he is telling his employee to tell the customer to stop, he is giving her written information so she is aware, and he is writing a report. IF it continues, his next step will be for him to quietly ask the customer to stop bothering his employees. If the customer continues then he simply bans him from the store.

While it is a big issue in major corporations which is usually EMPLOYER harassment of employees, this issue can be easily dealt with and STEPS should be taken not a grab the rifle and go searching for the guy mentality. This is not that big of a legal situation. But it is a situation to be noted and watched.

The employer is watching himself and her and as i said earlier he needs to discuss this with her on a level to be sure he doesn't have a jealous bf come running into his store and attacking the guy.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 3/14/2010 9:45:15 AM >

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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RE: Intervening For An Employee - 3/14/2010 9:51:58 AM   
lobodomslavery


Posts: 2477
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline 		I d let it blow over. She s obviously getting a kick out of it herself otherwise She would not have mentioned it. Yeah it could be kinky for her. Let it blow over, if She breaks down in tears over it though, take action and reprimand the individual warning that you will call the cops if he does it again. She hasnt broken down over it so She obviously finds it kinky. Maybe you could offer to spank the offending man
Kevin

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Intervening For An Employee - 3/14/2010 3:32:41 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Whilst it may be a small business in a small town, the employer owes the same duty of care as he would were this Megacorp Inc in Manhattan.

And here at least, if she wished to raise a complaint that the duty had been failed, then she could take it forward herself or find a specialist lawyer (even paralegal) on contingency to do it for her. Since its unlikely she'd want to go back to her job, or that the employer would want her back, his failure to take action to fulfil his duty of care could easily comprise constructive dismissal on top of the harassment, for a settlement running to more than enough to account for a year's salary in such a position.


I agree that the employer owes the same duty of care. The OP provided her with a pamphlet on sexual harassment, asked her if she wanted her to intervene and was told "no." There is still the he said/she said issue that is insurmountable really. The OP really does need to quietly "investigate," by means of eavesdropping to find out what exactly is being said. Something about this is telling my gut that it isn't what the employee is making it out to be, for whatever reason.

In the US, a paralegal could not do anything for her on a case like this, it would constitute the unauthorized practice of law. The problem with the contingency is that it would not equal the amount of work that was done. This is a minimum wage position, and a lawsuit would cost the full amount of that year's salary plus some.

The bare reality here is that the employee has made a conscious choice for the OP to do nothing. She didn't even give specifics of what he was saying, just that it was crass. Unless the OP left out the specifics (which do make a difference). She has the pamphlet, she can then decide if she feels there is something she wants her employer to do. But without actually knowing what was said, the employer risks making a false allegation against the man.

There are certain types of jobs where an employee needs to be able to make reasonable decisions on their own. This employee is working the register at a gas station. If she is reasonably attractive, customers hitting on her or asking her out is not unlikely. They don't all constitue sexual harassment or a hostile work environment. Given there seemed to be no discomfort viewed on the video surveilence, it is not unreasonable to presume that the employee is not only not uncomfortable with the things the man says but also might indeed be encouraging him, enjoying the attention.

Certainly it would be possible for her to attempt to retain an attorney and tell him that her employer did nothing. The OP, however, as the employer did exactly what she should have done. Having not been present to hear the conversations, and only getting the employees version of events, gave her a pamphlet on sexual harassment in the work place and asked if the employee would like her to intervene. The employee took the pamphlet and refused intervention, not once, but twice. Let's not forget that the employee also has a duty here as well. Has she instructed the man that what he is saying is unacceptable and needs to stop? She does have a duty to do so. Why? Because there may be times when she is the only employee present and the situation needs immediate action, which can only come from her. Therefore it is part of her job. At a gas station, there will be times that someone just "passing through" could be engaging in unwanted behavior, and the employee can't expect the employer to try to hunt them down to "make things right."

In any case, as I said earlier, I don't think that this employee is actually bothered by what the man is doing. I believe that she likes the attention, hence her "As if...with what I have at home..." statement. That doesn't change the fact that the OP should find out what is actually occuring by way of eavesdropping, but until that happens, only the man and the employee actually know what is going on.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: Intervening For An Employee - 3/14/2010 5:30:38 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
You may want to speak to her as well.  If she's offended, she needs to show it.  It sounds like the guy thinks that he's being encouraged.


Yep. "Laughingly" reporting something like this doesn't sound like the employee is too terribly distressed by it. Add to that the fact that you are only getting one side of this story at this point. If it bothers you that this is going on in your establishment then act as you see fit after you have sufficient proof that it has happened as the woman says it has. I'm not insinuating that she is dishonest but sometimes people have different perspectives on the same discussion. If you just want to go to bat for the employee I would let her handle it her own way or wait until she is obviously distressed about it to take the matter up yourself.



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RE: Intervening For An Employee - 3/15/2010 2:51:48 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		So she should just say "I have an olman, I am not interested". I can dig it. It the guy doesn't stop her olman could walk in there, with asshole not knowing who he is or anything. Witness this behavior for himself and then uneknownst to anyone else, catch the asshole on the way in or out and brain him with the nearest blunt instrument. This is what your olman is supposed to do IMO.

T

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Intervening For An Employee - 3/15/2010 9:48:18 AM   
petmonkey


Posts: 1053
Joined: 7/7/2009
Status: offline 		He's wasting your employee's time and therefore your money.  Your running a business, everyone present should treat it as such, including visitors to your shop, despite the 'family' feel and bones throwing grandmother. Your employee might be hesitant to outright ask for your involvement for the same reason she's not outright telling the guy to step the feck back--she might not know how to do so, she may have some difficulties with assertiveness. Tell her you need her to be assertive, regardless of how uncomfortable it might initially make her.  Tell her his behavior is totally unacceptable, she may need to hear you say this in order to be assertive about the matter herself. And make your presence known when he's there--he wouldn't say those sorts of things out of other people's earshot if he wasn't aware that it was totally inappropriate.  If she wants dirty talk, it should be on her time and dime--not yours, but from the information you gave, i'm thinking she wouldn't bother mentioning it to you if it wasn't causing discomfort.


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