RE: Insults and other aggravations here

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ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 6:05:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: I appreciate the hands off attitude we've had from the mods lately, a lot - and I really hope they continue that policy. I don't. Though I can't reasonably expect volunteers to invest hours of their time monitoring this forum, the fact remains that this place has gotten far uglier since the moderation changed to its current policy. I agree with you. I think this board as a whole has some of the better mods I've seen anywhere in a long time, in terms of fairness, common sense, and ability to judge the tone and read for content. The trouble is, while it may have been overmoderated to some degree until a few months ago, they've overcorrected by swinging too far in the other direction. I've seen a number of message boards over the years try build a vibrant community by turning off the moderation and adopting an "anything goes" policy, and it never works. The theory is that the worst and most obnoxious posters will lose respect and credibility, and will eventually either shape up or go away because they aren't fitting in, but it never works that way. What happens is that those are exactly the kind of posters who don't care about social acceptance. By nature, they're oblivious to the opinions of others, and they're invariably willing to shout louder than anyone else and longer than anyone is willing to wait for them to shut up. And it never takes long before they're the only ones who still want to post. That's the direction I see the Collarme forums as a whole heading; not just the political forum. And it's a shame, because this actually used to be a pretty damned good message board.

Sanity -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 6:08:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Just like Spinner used to do. THATS below the belt. quote: btw, Panda was having fun, Now that I read this that makes sense but when I first read his post it just seemed like his typical whining and crying. quote: and the most guilty party I was referring to lacks the stones to engage on the topic, even though he is on the thread. So you weren't referring to either one of them. Who could this mystery person be... rml?

kdsub -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 6:11:27 PM)
Panda I've been here awhile...not as long as many but awhile....I can tell you it was no better 3 years ago than it is now. When I first came we had the same kind of nutcases and narcissists that we have today. It is so easy just to ignore those you do not wish to engage and have fun with those you do. I like the oddballs, they give a fresh perspective on many boring subjects. I've been to other boards and I'm sure you have as well and you find the same tired egotism and insults. If you want to see what its like just find any board on photography or Photoshop they make this forum sound like kindergarten. Butch

Rule -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 6:36:30 PM)
FR I deplore name-calling and insults. Upon the few occasions that I have called for people in general to lessen the name-calling, I did note that they indeed temporarily decreased the number of their abusive expressions. I also deplore the snipes at pahunkboy, even if well intentioned. I can well imagine that they wear him down and that they may cause him serious harm. If I recall correctly, there was an item in the news last week about a British school girl that had hanged herself because she was bullied about being ugly. I admire pahunkboy for standing tall in the torrent of abuse that he endures. No, I do not think that having been insulted justifies insulting another in turn. That is not being a person yourself, but merely reflecting the bad behavior of another person.

AnimusRex -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 6:40:58 PM)
Well, as one who has slung about my fair share of snark sharp jabs, I find this thread interesting. I comment on a number of political blogs, here and elsewhere, and used to enjoy the strong arguments online. But I have over the past few years had this rising sense of futility with the debates. Which probably surprises some, since its obvious I enjoy arguing and debating. And it is tempting to take a sharp poke at people who disagree, to see this as a war, each post as a battle and skirmish to be won or lost. I remember even arguing that very point once. But it ultimately becomes futile- I can't imagine anyone ever, slapping their head and saying "My God! You're right! How could I have been so wrong!" Has anyone here ever changed their mind, or been persuaded? Because our opinions are not formed suddenly after reading a well thought out article or something; we hold our opinions as the result of years of life experience and observation. A sharp jab of snark only hardens them, instead of dislodging them. I think you all know I am active in the new group, the Coffee Party. We just had a national meeting today, coincidently. The premise of the group is to encourage people to engage in face to face meetings, and talk about the issues, promising to be civil and respectful of each other's opinions. What is interesting in this approach, is that usually there is some sort of sliver of common ground between us. It isn't to say that we can find some magic place where we can all hold hands and sing, but its one thing to say "we agree overall on X, but disagree on how to accomplish it"; versus, "your side is so crazy we can imagine only your total destruction and defeat". I think the national dialogue has been harmed by the triumphalistic nature of partisan politics; as much as I would love to see an eternal triumph and reign of People Who Think Like Me, I do know that its actually better to live in a place where we have a wide range of opinions. So maybe its possible to argue here, without turning it into a flame war or bitter personal feuds. Maybe its better if we - (myself included!) tried less to destroy the opposite side, but just state our position, and let the other one get the last word in. Maybe thats all we can expect, is to be heard.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 6:42:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Panda I've been here awhile...not as long as many but awhile....I can tell you it was no better 3 years ago than it is now. When I first came we had the same kind of nutcases and narcissists that we have today. I do think it was a lot better when some of the nutcases and narcissists had at least some fear of the moderators, though. I think it really made a difference - really made people think twice before hitting that "send" key. I know my join date says I've only been here a year or two, but I go back to 2005 or 2006, if I recall correctly. I had another profile that I couldn't access because of some password glitches, so I do recall what it was like before. Just seems like it's found a way to plunge to a whole new bottom lately. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub It is so easy just to ignore those you do not wish to engage and have fun with those you do. I like the oddballs, they give a fresh perspective on many boring subjects. Me too, but it does lower both the tone and the substance of the discussions. People eventually reach a point where they don't care what they post, because the standards are so low. There's little incentive to elevate. People try for a while, and then they just say, "Ok, fine. Fuck it." I think you're seeing a lot of that lately, not just in politics but all across the boards. Lots of people who used to post frequently hardly show up at all anymore, and some of them are gone altogether. The board is finding a new level, and it's a level that a lot of people just don't find appealing.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 6:48:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AnimusRex But it ultimately becomes futile- I can't imagine anyone ever, slapping their head and saying "My God! You're right! How could I have been so wrong!" Has anyone here ever changed their mind, or been persuaded? Not to go all Clintonesque on you, but it depends on what you mean by "changing my mind." It's very rare that a thread on a message board would completely change my position on an issue, but at the same time it's very common for an internet discussion to move me closer to the other side's position. If someone on the other side has a good argument, and you listen respectfully, you're going to understand their point of view better. You're often going to take some of that on board, and while you may still be committed to your side of the debate, you've changed your mind somewhat in the sense that you may now have a more moderate position. So yeah, I'd say my mind has often changed somewhat from internet debates.

kdsub -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 6:54:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: AnimusRex But it ultimately becomes futile- I can't imagine anyone ever, slapping their head and saying "My God! You're right! How could I have been so wrong!" Has anyone here ever changed their mind, or been persuaded? Not to go all Clintonesque on you, but it depends on what you mean by "changing my mind." It's very rare that a thread on a message board would completely change my position on an issue, but at the same time it's very common for an internet discussion to move me closer to the other side's position. If someone on the other side has a good argument, and you listen respectfully, you're going to understand their point of view better. You're often going to take some of that on board, and while you may still be committed to your side of the debate, you've changed your mind somewhat in the sense that you may now have a more moderate position. So yeah, I'd say my mind has often changed somewhat from internet debates. But it sure helps in understanding the other side of the argument...I very seldom change my mind in the heat of an argument...but I do listen to what others say and sometimes it does change my perspective on a subject... If your mind cannot be changed then you should not comment yourself... what would be the point? Butch

Apocalypso -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 7:23:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda I agree with you. I think this board as a whole has some of the better mods I've seen anywhere in a long time, in terms of fairness, common sense, and ability to judge the tone and read for content. The trouble is, while it may have been overmoderated to some degree until a few months ago, they've overcorrected by swinging too far in the other direction. I know I'm hardly averse to making cheap shots, but I have to agree here. I tend to avoid heavily moderated boards, but boards with completely lax moderation are equally problematic. (In essence, I like the occasional bit of snark or wellcrafted putdowns, but when serious discussions are getting derailed into off-topic flame wars or spam, then there's an issue. God help us if we ever get some proper trolls turning up...) quote: I've seen a number of message boards over the years try build a vibrant community by turning off the moderation and adopting an "anything goes" policy, and it never works. The theory is that the worst and most obnoxious posters will lose respect and credibility, and will eventually either shape up or go away because they aren't fitting in, but it never works that way. What happens is that those are exactly the kind of posters who don't care about social acceptance. By nature, they're oblivious to the opinions of others, and they're invariably willing to shout louder than anyone else and longer than anyone is willing to wait for them to shut up. And it never takes long before they're the only ones who still want to post. What basically happens is that, whatever the supposed topic of discussion on a board, it turns into a flame forum. Now, I post on a flame forum. And it's a good laugh at times, just insulting each other for the sake of it. But it comes at the expense of having any other purpose or focus. I've had this idea shot down before, but I think it's worth revisiting. The one successful way I've seen this issue handled is having a designated subforum for flame wars. It allows people who want to let off steam to do so, while others can avoid the place if it's not their thing. And it gives somewhere to move posts (and, depending on the board software even posters) which are just personal attacks for the sake of it.

Sanity -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 7:31:20 PM)
I looked back through the threads so that I could be more certain of what you were referring to, and you're right. I remember now that I did see some of his insane comments denying the holocaust and I didn't condemn them at the time, and I should have. I suppose that the reason I didn't was the way several others were hammering him on it, I thought that they were doing pretty good without my help. I also thought that he looked awfully stupid, and that he would probably get thrown off of collarchat again if he got any more outrageous. None of which excuses me, and so I want to apologize to you now and tell RealOne that holocaust deniers are truly sick and deranged people, there is no doubt about that in my book. quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol See, I think RealZero is someone who should systematically be addressed for all the lies that he tells - yet you are one person who remains eerily silent in the face of his disgusting politics. Why don't you, and all of the other "conservative" posters here, say anything to him? Please don't give me the "it's not worth arguing with wackos" - it's always worth telling them they're lying. If only for one's own sanity wink.

came4U -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 7:44:29 PM)
I've read on and off of this thread and the whole thing is sick. not to mention beyond personal to others, blaaa

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 7:52:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso I know I'm hardly averse to making cheap shots, but I have to agree here. I tend to avoid heavily moderated boards, but boards with completely lax moderation are equally problematic. (In essence, I like the occasional bit of snark or wellcrafted putdowns, but when serious discussions are getting derailed into off-topic flame wars or spam, then there's an issue. God help us if we ever get some proper trolls turning up...) That's my thinking, as well. God knows I love a good fight, but there has to be some balance. It's like when I was a kid, and boxing Golden Gloves. I loved to hammer the hell out of other fighters, but at the same time, I was glad there were rules by which I had to abide. If every match had just been a knife fight to the death, it wouldn't really have been quite as much fun. quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso I've had this idea shot down before, but I think it's worth revisiting. The one successful way I've seen this issue handled is having a designated subforum for flame wars. It allows people who want to let off steam to do so, while others can avoid the place if it's not their thing. And it gives somewhere to move posts (and, depending on the board software even posters) which are just personal attacks for the sake of it. There's another board I post on a lot since I gave up on this place this past winter, and they do exactly that. And it works pretty damned well. It's not just for flames; they also designate it as the forum for posting off-color or otherwise offensive discussions. But the guidelines are pretty clearly stated - whatever is said here will probably not be moderated, and with some rare exceptions, nobody will be penalized for what they say to you. If you can accept that, come on in and have at it - but if you can't handle it, stay out, because whatever you get yourself into here, you're on your own. People understand that, and it works out very well.

Arpig -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 7:54:57 PM)
~FR Its simple really, if you don't want people to call you stupid, then don't post stupid shit.

rulemylife -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 8:02:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity So you weren't referring to either one of them. Who could this mystery person be... rml? I'm no mystery. If anyone has something to say to me feel free, I would love to hear it.

TheHeretic -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 9:04:48 PM)
As far as the "in other words" posts, Sanity, while some are more pathetically unarmed without it than others, it's hardly a single individual, and I'm perfectly happy to call them on it in the moment. Unless they are completely humorless trolls, of course, in which case I don't even see the shit they type.

TheHeretic -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 10:15:18 PM)
How have we made it to page 4 here without anybody mentioning spamboy???

InvisibleBlack -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 10:19:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: AnimusRex But it ultimately becomes futile- I can't imagine anyone ever, slapping their head and saying "My God! You're right! How could I have been so wrong!" Has anyone here ever changed their mind, or been persuaded? Not to go all Clintonesque on you, but it depends on what you mean by "changing my mind." It's very rare that a thread on a message board would completely change my position on an issue, but at the same time it's very common for an internet discussion to move me closer to the other side's position. I don't particularly think the purpose of a political discussion forum is to change someone's mind. I'd be a little skeptical f someone told me a post on a message board changed their worldview. I read the political forums because it often brings up matters I was unaware of, points of view I wouldn't have thought of, or facts/articles/information that I was unaware of. At least once a week and typically far more often I end up looking up something because I knew nothing about it. Sometimes it colors or informs my worldview, sometimes I just shake my head and discard it - but it's not a waste of my time to listen to someone explain why they believe something I do not if at the end of it, I learn something I didn't know - even if it doesn't alter my own opinion. As regards the insults and nastiness - I try very strongly not to stoop to name-calling or insults. In my mind if all you can do to make your point is insult the other side, you're conceding that you've lost the debate. A little spirited discussion is one thing, claiming someone is a moron for believing differently than you do is simply exposing your own narrow-mindedness or bigotry. There are intelligent, well-informed people on these forums. I notice a number of them have been posting less and less frequently and some have outright given up. I also notice that some of the most informative and detailed posts receive the least attention while a rant about some stupidity will spark a massive chain of replies. What is that telling you? [Edited. Typos.]

slvemike4u -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/13/2010 10:21:02 PM)
Okay,I'll bite of all the many "suspects"just who the fuck is the "spamboy" you speak of......let me take one guess before you divulge who it is your speaking of....I'm thinking of gators and Spector gunships....I'm thinking "cucky"! Do I win a kewpie doll or something?

SilverMark -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/14/2010 4:25:05 AM)
Funny thing....I have all but stopped posting here due to a lot of what is being discussed in this thread. I find so much here of interest but also find so much that I simply cannot waste my time with. As a rather liberal person, I find a great deal of interest in what Sanity has to say and he and I over the time have disagreed but, always with a great deal of respect for one another.What little I know of him here I know he is a good man and doesn't desrve to be insulted because we disagree on political issues. There are so many from the conservative side of the issues I like as people and that I find to be very bright and good people with their heads and hearts in the right place. The insulting, the way off base none referenced posts keep me away. I would rather enjoy a good. debate than to belittle another person who I disagree with but, find common ground in other areas. Well reasoned arguments are how I ended up here and when I do comment I try to do so in that manner although as of late they seem to be so few and far between. I think my last few posts have been short and simple disbelieving snide remarks, posted out of frustration by some of the convoluded nature of the threads and wish for better points to be made and better arguments done with repsect as opposed to sniping at one another and posts referenced to either off based blogs or science fiction based conspiracy theories. Bring on the elections, let's really talk of politics again!

Sanity -> RE: Insults and other aggravations here (3/14/2010 7:04:38 AM)
Ha! Okay, thanks for clearing that one up, Heretic. And you do call them on it too, in a heartbeat. Good for you, too. quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic As far as the "in other words" posts, Sanity, while some are more pathetically unarmed without it than others, it's hardly a single individual, and I'm perfectly happy to call them on it in the moment. Unless they are completely humorless trolls, of course, in which case I don't even see the shit they type.

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