RE: The Problem With Atheists (Full Version)

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LadyAngelika -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/16/2010 4:40:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
You are making the argument that anything can exist if we just believe it, regardless of lack of any proof.


That's what some people believe ... and there's no proof they're wrong.

Pirate

Of course there's proof of that statements inaccuracy. There are plenty of beliefs out there which are demonstrably wrong. For example it turns out that the earth isn't flat.


Some people would disagree with you : http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm ;-)

- LA



sweetboundesire -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/22/2010 7:24:24 AM)

the problem with a good atheist revolution is the fact nobody cares to believe. No belief, no strong motivation. Personally i think it hinders personal growth not to believe in anything at all...not to have some sort of faith. I don't see a need for religion, i am not religious but i do believe in an intelligence that underlies or permeates everything. To be in denial of this is to cut yourself off from the connection to the life force around you. Hence, not really drawing on any power, just believing in not believing, doesn't add a lot of strength to the cause.

This said, there would be a lot less death and war if organized religion did not exist. Religion is a wacky thing. Is it an excuse to use your inner hate on someone? Is there a need in most people to believe crazy fairytale like stories w/o question? Why do people take a religion and use it to be so cruel. Why do people not understand how governments have used it as a form of control for ages? I just don't get that part and to me has nothing to do with acknowledging the "all that is."



Elisabella -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/22/2010 7:37:06 AM)

-FR-

No way in hell am I reading seven pages about this...but I'll just say what I believe the problem with Athiesm is - the fact that atheists often conflate God the Father (aka the Judeo/Christian/Muslim patriarchal God) with any type of higher power or spirituality. Every debate I've had with an atheist, they've always brought up Christianity or even accused me of being a "Bible thumper" literally out of the blue, despite the fact that Christianity is not my religion and never has been.

I also think that the 'atheist movement' so to speak is more about anti-religion sentiment than about personal belief, and in that sense, they're no different from any other sort of evangelist.



Musicmystery -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/22/2010 11:08:26 AM)

quote:

he problem with a good atheist revolution is the fact nobody cares to believe. No belief, no strong motivation. Personally i think it hinders personal growth not to believe in anything at all...not to have some sort of faith.


This type of continual bullshit gets tiring. You don't believe in God, therefore you believe in nothing?

It's self-serving, illogical crap.



Musicmystery -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/22/2010 11:10:53 AM)

quote:

I also think that the 'atheist movement' so to speak is more about anti-religion sentiment than about personal belief, and in that sense, they're no different from any other sort of evangelist.


This is also nonsense. Sure, there are unreasonable people. Sounds like you've talked to a few.

I could give a damn who believes what about God or the universe--up to the point it interferes with rational decisions for the common good (e.g., I voted for this because it's what God wants).



Kirata -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/22/2010 12:22:00 PM)

Hi Tim,

There seems to be a cadre of so-called "atheists" who do not simply not believe in the God of Western revealed religion, but are in fact are firmly committed to a mutually exclusive belief, and as abrasive in promoting their view of the ultimate nature of reality as any $300 haircut on the Trinity Network. To other Atheists I know, they are an embarrassment.

K.



Elisabella -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/22/2010 6:10:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

I also think that the 'atheist movement' so to speak is more about anti-religion sentiment than about personal belief, and in that sense, they're no different from any other sort of evangelist.


This is also nonsense. Sure, there are unreasonable people. Sounds like you've talked to a few.

I could give a damn who believes what about God or the universe--up to the point it interferes with rational decisions for the common good (e.g., I voted for this because it's what God wants).


Right, it's the difference between "an atheist" and "the atheist movement" same as the difference between "a Christian" and "the Religious Right movement"



Musicmystery -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/22/2010 6:14:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Hi Tim,

There seems to be a cadre of so-called "atheists" who do not simply not believe in the God of Western revealed religion, but are in fact are firmly committed to a mutually exclusive belief, and as abrasive in promoting their view of the ultimate nature of reality as any $300 haircut on the Trinity Network. To other Atheists I know, they are an embarrassment.

K.


So really, this is not about "the problem with atheists," but rather the atheists with problems.

[:D]



Blackwolf9 -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/23/2010 4:23:22 AM)

..



thishereboi -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/23/2010 4:25:55 AM)

quote:

This said, there would be a lot less death and war if organized religion did not exist.


I doubt that. People would just find something else to use, in order to get others to fight their wars.



GotSteel -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/23/2010 4:26:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetboundesire
Personally i think it hinders personal growth not to believe in anything at all...not to have some sort of faith.

Personally, I think that spiritual beliefs hinder growth. Not only of the person but also of the whole society. A couple of examples, there are still Muslim countries that stone people to death for being gay and the Catholic church is still actively convincing people with AIDS to have unprotected sex.

There are all sort of beliefs that came into vogue in the Bronze Age and really should have disappeared soon after, young earth creationism and flat earth theory come to mind. However, because these beliefs are a part of their spirituality, they cling to them desperately and indoctrinate their children with them vigorously. Such that to this day our societies are still hindered by the most obvious nonsense.



Elisabella -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/23/2010 5:45:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Personally, I think that spiritual beliefs hinder growth. Not only of the person but also of the whole society. A couple of examples, there are still Muslim countries that stone people to death for being gay and the Catholic church is still actively convincing people with AIDS to have unprotected sex.



You also have people who believe that the white race and/or Jews are descended from a race of lizard aliens who came here to enslave the planet via Freemasonry.

People can get plenty crazy even without throwing a God in the mix.



GotSteel -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/23/2010 6:06:56 AM)

I couldn't agree more, that's why I don't believe in belief.



juliaoceania -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/23/2010 7:06:57 AM)

quote:

Personally, I think that spiritual beliefs hinder growth. Not only of the person but also of the whole society.


This sentence is a "belief" on your part. You have no empirical evidence for stating this, you say "think" because it sounds like you arrived at this conclusion through your rational mind, but it is nonetheless a conclusion not founded in logic or evidence... just what you believe.



quote:

A couple of examples, there are still Muslim countries that stone people to death for being gay and the Catholic church is still actively convincing people with AIDS to have unprotected sex.



One does not need  a religion to justify violence. There are ample examples of Atheists that have committed grave violence. There are ample examples of those with spiritual values that have averted it. I find it rather humorous that your example is one that is religion based, and not spirituality based, and you treat spirituality as though it is analogous with religion... the two are not analogous.

quote:

There are all sort of beliefs that came into vogue in the Bronze Age and really should have disappeared soon after, young earth creationism and flat earth theory come to mind. However, because these beliefs are a part of their spirituality, they cling to them desperately and indoctrinate their children with them vigorously. Such that to this day our societies are still hindered by the most obvious nonsense.


You cling to only acknowledging religions based upon the male dominated patriarchal religions of the Fertile Crescent  Region. These religions are hierarchical and based upon an angry vengeful male deity. I would like to know how much you know about world religion and spirituality based upon a different paradigm than the major religions of the world that are based upon the seed of Abraham



cloudboy -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/23/2010 7:26:18 AM)


Spirituality is one thing, organized religion and religious dogma are something else.



GotSteel -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/23/2010 12:13:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
This sentence is a "belief" on your part. You have no empirical evidence for stating this, you say "think" because it sounds like you arrived at this conclusion through your rational mind, but it is nonetheless a conclusion not founded in logic or evidence... just what you believe.

False, I used the word "think" to express an opinion I've formed from the observations I've made and history I've learned over the last twenty years of my life.



GotSteel -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/23/2010 12:15:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
you treat spirituality as though it is analogous with religion... the two are not analogous.

No, I treat the beliefs fostered by a religion as though they aren't any less spiritual in nature simply because they are organized.


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
You cling to only acknowledging religions based upon the male dominated patriarchal religions of the Fertile Crescent Region.

I'm using examples that I expect my intended audience to be familiar with as opposed to say citing the gender inequalities fostered by Neo-Confucianism.



urineme -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/23/2010 1:37:26 PM)

Something I see, which is disturbing to me AS an atheist, is the tendancy of some atheists to want to take it to the extent of being ANTI-THEIST, and to organize themselves just as the organized-religion theists have. That makes them as intolerant as the theists they rail against.

William




GotSteel -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/24/2010 8:45:41 AM)

urineme I'm wondering, why do you consider yourself an atheist? How do you reconcile that position with your belief in the paranormal?



urineme -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/24/2010 9:28:14 AM)

Gotsteel, nowhere is there a "Universal creed of Atheism" that says we cannot accept that there ARE things we cannot explain yet. I DO believe that we, as individuals, have abilities within ourselves that are currently classified, at least in western thought, as "Para-normal". I don't see the conflict. After considerable studies in comparative religion, including ancient mythologies of the world, (One man's religion is another man's mythology), I have come to see that deity-concepts are a creation of man, to fill a need. If a person has the need, let them fill it therewith, as is their basic human right. If a person doesn't feel the need, let them do as they will, and harm none, which includes NOT harranging or abusing those that believe differently. I accept that the tendancy towards intollerance of different beliefs is equally shared across the human race, but we have a choice as rational human beings to NOT be intolerant. That is all I am asking that we do as individuals, regardless of belief, or non-belief.

William



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