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Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/13/2010 10:00:00 PM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		The super rich have an advantage the rest of us don't have, The money to buy influence and votes and the "best health care in the world", which most Americans can't afford.

Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich?
 
Our nation is already deeply in debt. How can we possibly afford to invest in our infrastructure, renewable energy, health care, our schools — and create the millions of jobs that our unemployed desperately need?

We are told that we’re already living well beyond our means — that entitlement programs like Medicare and Social Security will bankrupt us. Forget the solar panels, the smaller classes and the new jobs — we’ve got to cut back on government programs at all levels.

Meanwhile, the super-rich are still having a ball. In his annual shareholder letter, mega-investor Warren Buffett wrote, “We’ve put a lot of money to work during the chaos of the last two years. When it’s raining gold, reach for a bucket, not a thimble.” And Forbes Magazine adds, “Many plutocrats did just that. Indeed, last year’s wealth wasteland has become a billionaire bonanza. Most of the richest people on the planet have seen their fortunes soar in the past year.”
 
http://www.alternet.org/rights/146020/why_are_we_afraid_to_tax_the_super-rich
 
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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 9:01:27 AM   
DomImus


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Status: offline 		I'd hate to see your personal finances if you don't believe that living within your means is a viable financial strategy.




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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 9:09:49 AM   
Sanity


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Or if he truly believes that success is evil of itself should be brutally punished.

The real reason we don't slam the "super rich" with massive taxes? We'd have to be insane to kill our cash cows, or to drive them off to other pastures.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

I'd hate to see your personal finances if you don't believe that living within your means is a viable financial strategy.





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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 10:05:41 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		How exactly are the super rich your cash cows, if they dont pay a fair share of tax and invest their money offshore and reinvest their growth in asset value in the same way such that they contribute little or nothing to the US economy aside from occasionally buying goods or services that being of the premium variety have little or no impact on the wider socio-economic scale?

E




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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 10:09:21 AM   
lobodomslavery


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Status: offline 		Simple there are too few of them around and governments world wide are too gutless to place a wealth tax on people earning $150,000 dollars and upwards, a tax which they could well afford to pay but dont because governments world wide think its better for the ordinary worker to take the hit just as its better to fire the small guys and let the rich off scott free even though they are precisely the reason why we are in this mess in the first place. Their greed and reckless speculation has resulted in the mass unemployment and economic stagnation we currently have. Once again the poor pay for the misdemeanours of the rich
Kevin

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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 10:14:11 AM   
Sanity


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The super rich provide jobs, and they pay most of the taxes here. What is "their fair share" in your book. Like Brian, if they're not rotting in prison they haven't paid enough, I suppose? Or if they're still in the country, if they haven't been driven offshore yet, they haven't paid enough?

Just how much is "their fair share"? 




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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 10:16:31 AM   
Sanity


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The poor in the United States don't pay any federal income tax. In fact, the lower 50% of the population pays practically nothing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

Simple there are too few of them around and governments world wide are too gutless to place a wealth tax on people earning $150,000 dollars and upwards, a tax which they could well afford to pay but dont because governments world wide think its better for the ordinary worker to take the hit just as its better to fire the small guys and let the rich off scott free even though they are precisely the reason why we are in this mess in the first place. Their greed and reckless speculation has resulted in the mass unemployment and economic stagnation we currently have. Once again the poor pay for the misdemeanours of the rich
Kevin



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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 10:17:42 AM   
lobodomslavery


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Status: offline 		Some of the bankers should be in jail. They got us into this mess in the first place.
Kevin

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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 10:19:57 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Simple there are too few of them around and governments world wide are too gutless to place a wealth tax on people earning $150,000 dollars and upwards, a tax which they could well afford to pay but dont because governments world wide think its better for the ordinary worker to take the hit


I'm not taking a position here on this issue. But FYI---

In the U.S., 15,350,327 Americans make $150,000 or more per year. That's 5% of the population (the entire population).
353,000 make a million or more per year.

Of course, this is based on tax returns, so it doesn't reflect sheltered earnings.

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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 10:19:58 AM   
Sanity


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Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, Democrat Senators, forced the banks to give loans to people who couldn't afford to repay them. Thats what begat the entire sub prime mortgage disaster in the first place, the notion that everybody deserves a house, even if they can't afford one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

Some of the bankers should be in jail. They got us into this mess in the first place.
Kevin



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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 10:20:09 AM   
lobodomslavery


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Status: offline 		Thats in the States. In Ireland people on 25,000 euro and less pay a levy of 10% on top of tax , people on 250,000 euro and upward pay a levy of 2% on top of tax. Where is the fairness in that? There is not. And the poorest of the poor dont pay tax your right. And why is that? They dont have jobs. And why is that? Because their bosses fired them because they could no longer afford to pay them because of their screw ups
Kevin

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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 10:21:37 AM   
lobodomslavery


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Status: offline 		The their is of course the screw ups of bosses who caused this problem in the first place
Kevin

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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 10:28:13 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Dont be silly Sanity; I own a business and its my goal to become super rich, so why should I think that way?

I disagree that the super rich provide jobs, unless we wish to count the jobs they do provide outside your country. I also disagree that they pay a fair share of taxation - even if they (by class) pay the highest proportion of the total, they do not pay a fair share for, (and anyone able to would do the same), they have the capacity to move their assets in and out of jurisdictions according to tax rates, they have the capacity to work the tax system with advice mere mortals cannot access and they have the ear of government by way of patronage and lobbying. Taking the UK as an example, the poorest here pay 20% of income in taxes whilst the wealthiest pay little or nothing by these mechanisms.

A fair share to me would depend on the degree of investment in your country. Someone who has billions invested overseas and lives here because they prefer it to elsewhere should pay a whole lot more than someone equally well endowed who invests here and either lives here or doesnt.

In short, its about commerce and industry having a social purpose and responsibility - a view which has been destroyed in recent times and which in its antipathy has seen your country and mine disintegrate and fall behind. The results are now manifesting further in anger against the prevailing model, growing economic problems necessitating huge deficits and rather than seeing it clearly for what it is, a breakdown in politics that is entrenching the problematic view, backed with vast financial resource, against the better view, backed with vast support from the population.

E

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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 10:35:56 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Simple there are too few of them around and governments world wide are too gutless to place a wealth tax on people earning $150,000 dollars and upwards, a tax which they could well afford to pay but dont because governments world wide think its better for the ordinary worker to take the hit


I'm not taking a position here on this issue. But FYI---

In the U.S., 15,350,327 Americans make $150,000 or more per year. That's 5% of the population (the entire population).
353,000 make a million or more per year.

Of course, this is based on tax returns, so it doesn't reflect sheltered earnings.
quote:

Thats in the States. In Ireland


By the way, in the UK....

$150,000 is £98,886.

Here are ranges and number of earners:
£70,000 to £100,000 -- 410,000
£100,000 to £200,000 -- 300,000
£200,000 to £500,000 -- 89,000
£500,000 to £1Million -- 16,000
Over £1Million -- 6,000

So, roughly 411,000 make over $150,000 (calling it £100,000), 6.7% of the population.

(I didn't see data for Ireland quickly, not gonna look for it. Just wanted to give you an idea.)

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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 12:20:54 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


The super rich provide jobs

If you live in Bombay, they'd much rather pay you to work in one of their call centres than they would provide an American with a living wage, yes. Don't even get me started on their approach to subcontracting manufacturing industry.

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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 12:31:32 PM   
Sanity


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High taxes, thuggish and unreasonable unions, and myriad and onerous regulations combine to force manufacturering offshore. But thats not enough. Now we must drive the wealthy themselves away as well... along with whatever manufacturing may yet remain.

Whatever the question, higher taxes and more government red tape must be the answer.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
If you live in Bombay, they'd much rather pay you to work in one of their call centres than they would provide an American with a living wage, yes. Don't even get me started on their approach to subcontracting manufacturing industry.


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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 12:45:35 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


High taxes, thuggish and unreasonable unions, and myriad and onerous regulations combine to force manufacturering offshore. But thats not enough. Now we must drive the wealthy themselves away as well... along with whatever manufacturing may yet remain.

Whatever the question, higher taxes and more government red tape must be the answer.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
If you live in Bombay, they'd much rather pay you to work in one of their call centres than they would provide an American with a living wage, yes. Don't even get me started on their approach to subcontracting manufacturing industry.


If they're not paying taxes or providing jobs domestically, who'll give a fuck if they're driven out of the country?

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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 12:57:33 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Actually, we're running a manufacturing trade surplus with our free trade partners--$2.7 billion.

People love to point to anecdotal evidence of industry moving overseas. Yet, overseas manufacturers move here too, for a variety of reasons. Goods are produced globally where it makes sense good by good, country by country. That includes then $14 trillion U.S. economy, one-fifth of the global economy.

From the Dept. of Commerce:
“These figures show that our FTAs are succeeding and that Americans benefit from open markets,” Gutierrez said. Our trade balance with FTA partners has swung from a deficit to a surplus proving that open markets are a key ingredient to the competitiveness of U.S. manufacturing and the health of the U.S. economy. Last year, manufacturing accounted for 62 percent of America’s record $1.6 trillion exports in goods and services.

"This improvement in the trade balance is due to the increasing competitiveness of U.S. manufactured goods. Since 2002, FTAs have helped U.S. manufactured exports grow steadily and at a faster rate than imports — 63 percent compared to only 42 percent, respectively, year-to-date through May 2008 (compared to same period of 2002).

"These calculations are based on the monthly data released by the U.S. Census Bureau and the Bureau of Economic Analysis in the FT900: U.S. International Trade in Goods and Services, as revised annually."




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/14/2010 12:59:46 PM >

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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 1:02:03 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		No argument with that, but that's more down to international economics than the American plutocracy Sanity's terrified will leave the country if they're expected to pay the same percentage of income tax as people in his earnings bracket, isn't it?

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RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? - 3/14/2010 1:03:47 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		The point is, we are not driving out manufacturing, at least not net. Just the opposite.

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