Conditioned or Choice (Full Version)

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heartfeltsub -> Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 5:22:24 AM)

The other day i was reading in the Gorean section (and please that is not a request to comment on the difference between Gor and BDSM) and a question was asked and comments made that sparked an idea for a question of my own.

The question and the comment had to do with obedience and why a slave obeys. The person making the comment was promoting the idea of obedience becoming a conditioned response and she also mentioned in some M/s BDSM-style relationships that the act of obedience, even after years together, is still an active conscious choice on the part of the s-type.

Which got me wondering, if you identify as a slave, is it either all conditioned responses to obey or is it all conscious, willful choices to obey or a combination of the two. And if you identify as a Master which are you striving for from your slave, a conditioned response to obey or a conscious willful choice to obey and why are you looking for that kind of obedience response?

i am aware that some actions become rote after time, and the post that sparked these questions mentioned that part of what can show if someone has been conditioned to obey is to ask her to do something that she would have formerly objected to. While i am reticent to add that part to the mix as i am hoping this thread doesn't degrade into a limits thread, if you are a slave and you are conditioned to obey, how did you know when it became an internal conditioned response and no longer a willful conscious choice? And when you became aware that you were now internally conditioned to obey whether you really wanted to consciously or not, what was your reaction to that knowledge?

Thank you in advance for your replies,
heartfelt



ForeverOwned -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 5:52:02 AM)

It was automatic and natural for me from the moment we met. We, just fell into place. Kind of like when you meet someone and you instantly like them or you instantly don't. It wasn't one of those things that i ever even thought about. It just was.

Since we are 24/7 and have three ums it never becomes routine, because of what life throws at you every day and the clever ways we have to come up with so that we can do this without our ums knowledge.

Yes, i had a lot to learn and so did he, but neither one of us had to be conditioned. It;s what we both wanted and what we both loved.



Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 6:00:55 AM)

Hmmm. I've never posed those questions to myself until you just asked them, so I'm giving you my instant reaction response.

I honestly believe that I would prefer a concious choice to obey rather than a conditioned response to obey.

To me, if someone is conciously choosing to obey that seems like they are doing it because I inspire them to obey, that I inspire trust, that I inspire their happiness in doing such - even if it is something they may not want to do at the time - but their overall happiness is based upon my happiness. I want my submissive/slave to feel good about the relationship overall, to feel complete and whole and accepted. I think someone conciously choosing to obey shows that overall good feeling of the relationship.

Conditioned responses to obey, in my mind, seem like brain washing. Like they have no other choice but to obey, regardless of who it is, whether out of fear or other reasons that don't feel good to ME.

Don't get me wrong, some things become automatic, and that's to be expected (and I suppose that is a form of conditioning), but I want when it becomes automatic to stem from a place of general contentment. So, I guess I'm saying I expect a combination of inspired choice to form into a conditioned response which stems from that initial inspired choice.

I know, I'm not being very clear, because I'm sort of thinking this through while typing.

EFT - probably missed a few.



wisdomtogive -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 6:04:43 AM)

Heartfeltsub
I first want to tell you that you post excellent questions, and I would like to thank you for that. Being new to this myself, your thread does interest me a lot. At this time in my short existence of being a slave, i find that many times I have to make a conscious decision to obey the majority of the time. i am not sure if this is a-typical, but i believe for me it is. There is a driving force within me to please, yet at times i do feel that i stumble over my own two feet.

Thank you again for this excellent thread, which I plan to read through the beginning to the end.
Blessings,
wisdom



UniqueRaven -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 9:02:03 AM)

i generally see obedience as a conscious choice.

If i rely on my obedience to simply be something i am "conditioned" to do, in a way i am making my obedience always dependent upon my Owner, and for him to inspire to me to obey through some action of his own.

By being responsible for my own obedience i am relying upon my own determination, and self-control, to be obedient even when i don't want to - even when i doesn't feel good, or i really don't like it.

Inspiration is a feeling - Determination is an action. It is goal-oriented. And determination will defeat inspiration almost every time.



GraciousLady -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 9:14:08 AM)

As a Dominant I want my subs to willingly submit to me. It has to be their choice. But, I want them to because I have inspired them to do so.



Missokyst -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 9:16:50 AM)

I do not identify as a slave, however when I young and married title or not, that is what I was. Obedience was a conditioned response. I complied regardless of the fact I felt no love for my husband. I obeyed as a survival instinct. It was not that I was phyiscally abused, but mentally my happiness was not important, nor expected. Now as a submissive I obey not as a condtioned response.. instead I do it because I need to make my partner happy. My happiness is important and as such I only choose dominants with whom I feel a connection and who also desire I get something back from the relationship.



UniqueRaven -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 9:19:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GraciousLady

As a Dominant I want my subs to willingly submit to me. It has to be their choice. But, I want them to because I have inspired them to do so.


My future Owner inspires me to be his - he draws me to to him to serve him, and him alone in exactly the way that pleases him, and him specifically, because of the Owner and the man that he is.

i see submission and obedience as actions - actions which i am responsible for on my life's journey as slave. There is very little "attached" to my submission and obedience, as i see them as unconditional actions of choice.

Honestly i can submit to, or obey anyone that i choose. It is the choice of who that makes all the difference.



allthatjaz -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 10:22:37 AM)


Both but I think its fairly complicated.
Lets take a woman who has always talked too much. Nobody has ever told her she talks too much and she is totally unaware that she does. Her partner tells her that she is talking too much and she is suddenly hit with a home truth that may come as a bit of a shock. She may even feel insulted. She can't just change because she has always done this and its become a lifetime habit and anyway, what does he know. If she tries to change, he probably won't notice and if she doesn't change then he will just keep telling her to shut up.

Its very different with a slave/submissive and this is where nurture and nature start to get intertwined. Her nature wants to please him because pleasing him is a reward. Her nature has given her this awful condition of talking too much! Part of his skills as a Master/Dominant is to nurture/train and he's already on a winning streak because this chatterboxes aim in life is to please her man. She doesn't mind how many times he reminds or even punishes her because he has given her a challenge and that challenge brings positive reward and he will notice when she does change and reward her with his words.
Teachers and parents use positive persuasion with children all the time and it works because children want to please us and very much want us to respect them. The reward is self satisfaction and pride.
I think training only works when its realistic. There must be manageable goals, the goal set must be achievable or eventually it will fail.
A Dominant that takes on a new sub for training may tell her she can only pee when he calls her twice a day and that she must wear a butt plug for work and that she must be waiting naked on all fours when he walks through the door. If she does this it will be her consciously choosing to please him but in most cases will not ever get to the stage of her being trained to do that without thinking because he will probably lose interest and become forgetful about what he asked her to do before she does.



LadyAngelika -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 10:30:11 AM)

Those who live in a society where they can chose to be who they want to be, everything is a choice. That choice however is always deeply influenced by desires which might have been either inherited or conditioned.

- LA



osf -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 10:44:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven

i generally see obedience as a conscious choice.

If i rely on my obedience to simply be something i am "conditioned" to do, in a way i am making my obedience always dependent upon my Owner, and for him to inspire to me to obey through some action of his own.

By being responsible for my own obedience i am relying upon my own determination, and self-control, to be obedient even when i don't want to - even when i doesn't feel good, or i really don't like it.

Inspiration is a feeling - Determination is an action. It is goal-oriented. And determination will defeat inspiration almost every time.


I've often likened it to a calling like a religious calling, you do it because for whatever reason you believe it the right thing to do and not always because you feel like doing it

that said I do believe there has to be a innate need to be obedient, it is a priori



kiwisub12 -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 11:11:49 AM)

99% of the time I obey my Sir without thinking about it - not as a conditioned response - but because there is nothing to think about. He wants a cup of coffee? - no brainer - I get it for him.

The other 1% I may query his choices - because they may not be the best thing for him. (Unique circumstances due to cancer and need to drink water and less coffee)
Other that that, I am not a dog, I don't salivate when the bell rings. I don't jump to attention when my Sir barks - but I do pay attention - even if he accuses me of not doing so.



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 11:54:01 AM)

A bit of both, really.




Focus50 -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 2:11:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

The other day i was reading in the Gorean section (and please that is not a request to comment on the difference between Gor and BDSM) and a question was asked and comments made that sparked an idea for a question of my own.

The question and the comment had to do with obedience and why a slave obeys. The person making the comment was promoting the idea of obedience becoming a conditioned response and she also mentioned in some M/s BDSM-style relationships that the act of obedience, even after years together, is still an active conscious choice on the part of the s-type.

Which got me wondering, if you identify as a slave, is it either all conditioned responses to obey or is it all conscious, willful choices to obey or a combination of the two. And if you identify as a Master which are you striving for from your slave, a conditioned response to obey or a conscious willful choice to obey and why are you looking for that kind of obedience response?

i am aware that some actions become rote after time, and the post that sparked these questions mentioned that part of what can show if someone has been conditioned to obey is to ask her to do something that she would have formerly objected to. While i am reticent to add that part to the mix as i am hoping this thread doesn't degrade into a limits thread, if you are a slave and you are conditioned to obey, how did you know when it became an internal conditioned response and no longer a willful conscious choice? And when you became aware that you were now internally conditioned to obey whether you really wanted to consciously or not, what was your reaction to that knowledge?

I think any D/s - M/s couple that's been together longterm would have built enough mutual trust and respect that would make obedience more of a conditioned response than an individual choice.

I'd think it quite natural for a sub as well as a slave to reach that level of comfort and confidence if the Dom/Master was mostly making the right decisions.

Focus.



Lashra -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 2:53:26 PM)

My male sub makes the conscious decision to be submissive and obey because I inspire him to do so with my Dominance. I think after time a person could be conditioned enough  to serve without thinking with enough repetition. Example: Mistress comes home from work, boy kneels before her and removes her shoes. After years and years this doesn't take a lot of thought, the boy would be acting more on "auto pilot" if you will. So perhaps the answer is, it can be both.

~Lashra



heartfeltsub -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 2:54:54 PM)

Dominating,

Thank you for reply. What you said made a great deal of sense a combination, what i would like to ask in contination, is would you prefer initial conscious choice and have it develop into a more of a conditioned obedience or do you always want it to stay a combination where some is automatic and other things are a willful obeying and submitting?

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt



heartfeltsub -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 3:00:10 PM)

Thank you wisdom for your reply and your comments (grinning). To add, for me, which i didn't add in the OP, i find even when i don't want to, i obey from an instinctive place. Once the submissive switch has been flipped, i find it hard not to obey. i actually have to fight against the reaction when i know it is not wise to react that way with that person.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt



heartfeltsub -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 3:04:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven

i generally see obedience as a conscious choice.

If i rely on my obedience to simply be something i am "conditioned" to do, in a way i am making my obedience always dependent upon my Owner, and for him to inspire to me to obey through some action of his own.

By being responsible for my own obedience i am relying upon my own determination, and self-control, to be obedient even when i don't want to - even when i doesn't feel good, or i really don't like it.

Inspiration is a feeling - Determination is an action. It is goal-oriented. And determination will defeat inspiration almost every time.


i really like this response, Unique, especially the part that i bolded. i am wondering if this is the kind of obedience that most BDSM Masters Mistresses desire. Thank you again for your reply

heartfelt



heartfeltsub -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 3:08:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Those who live in a society where they can chose to be who they want to be, everything is a choice. That choice however is always deeply influenced by desires which might have been either inherited or conditioned.

- LA


Interesting comment. i know there are some who would say, they have no choice given their personal nature, to choose to be anything other than a slave. But i think your second sentence addresses that idea. Thank you for your reply.

heartfelt



heartfeltsub -> RE: Conditioned or Choice (3/14/2010 3:13:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: osf

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven

i generally see obedience as a conscious choice.

If i rely on my obedience to simply be something i am "conditioned" to do, in a way i am making my obedience always dependent upon my Owner, and for him to inspire to me to obey through some action of his own.

By being responsible for my own obedience i am relying upon my own determination, and self-control, to be obedient even when i don't want to - even when i doesn't feel good, or i really don't like it.

Inspiration is a feeling - Determination is an action. It is goal-oriented. And determination will defeat inspiration almost every time.


I've often likened it to a calling like a religious calling, you do it because for whatever reason you believe it the right thing to do and not always because you feel like doing it

that said I do believe there has to be a innate need to be obedient, it is a priori


i wonder if that is or can also be conditioned, i know from my childhood, i was trained to be a very obedient person. Training by a mother who was reared by nuns, who passed on that training on to her kids, who made any disobedience something that was  dealt with immediately. Because that was part of my childhood, i don't know how much of my need to obey comes from the innate personality that i was born with and how much comes from my early childhood training to be an obedient child.

Thank you for your reply,
heartfelt



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