RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy

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Silence8 -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/19/2010 11:47:42 PM)
FR The video would be easier to watch if it were a presentation by a visible speaker rather than a disembodied voice. Generally, though, I think some of the points made are actually somewhat true, if not obviously true for relatively-informed viewers. What wasn't clear from what I watched was how 'no government' would realistically function (as if mercnbeth sneaked in with some of his voodoo mantras) or whether 'no money' was being advocated. Still, there's something to be said for even attempting to achieve a comprehensive model.

DarlingSavage -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/21/2010 12:45:36 PM)
quote: "The extermination and concentration of the bison" is by Dean Lueck and appears in the Journal of Legal Studies, June 2002. Why are you using a legal study to discuss a historical phenomenon? It clearly says in the abstract that this is a study done "using a property rights model of renewable resource production." Furthermore, I haven't read the whole thread, nor do I wish to, but as far as I can see, you keep saying you're working on your Masters degree, but in what? Are you working on an MS or an MA? What is your field? I'm not seeing this information anywhere. Alright, for a whole second there, I almost thought you were credible until this: quote: Sure when there is human excrement floating down the river we'll blame the big coal mines..come on now. Are you fucking kidding me? Are you really this ignorant? When I initially saw the word excrement in your original post, I thought you really intended to refer to the pollution caused by coal mining sources. But this is ridiculous! Name your source for this ludicrous bit of BS. I'm not going to bother to read the rest of what you've written because I can see that it's not worth wasting my time on.

subfever -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/21/2010 1:09:37 PM)
quote: The video would be easier to watch if it were a presentation by a visible speaker rather than a disembodied voice. This may be true, though retention of information is probably higher when audio and key text display are combined. quote: Generally, though, I think some of the points made are actually somewhat true, if not obviously true for relatively-informed viewers. Indeed. quote: What wasn't clear from what I watched was how 'no government' would realistically function (as if mercnbeth sneaked in with some of his voodoo mantras) or whether 'no money' was being advocated. The "government" would primary be computerized. Money would be obsolete. quote: Still, there's something to be said for even attempting to achieve a comprehensive model. The model uses technology and resources for the benefit of humanity, as opposed to profit. It eventually ends all primary problems which we face today, being scarcity and its offspring of greed, prejudice, hunger, pollution, war, etc.

thompsonx -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/21/2010 6:15:10 PM)
I'm not going to bother to read the rest of what you've written because I can see that it's not worth wasting my time on. Now that is just mean. Remember there is no such thing as a stupid question ...but... there are stupid people who think they can peddle bullshit and call it buttermilk.

thornhappy -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/21/2010 6:46:41 PM)
How much longer does he think we can feed everyone, and what will they be eating? The world's fishing its way right down the water column as we speak. quote: ORIGINAL: subfever Using FR Bernard Lietaer, designer of the EU currency sysytem, said "Greed and competition are not the result of immutable human temperment. Greed and fear of scarcity are in fact, being continuously created and amplified as a direct result of the kind of money we are using. We can produce enough food to feed everybody, but there is clearly not enough money to pay for it. The scarcity is in our national currencies. In fact, the job of the central banks is to create and maintain that currency scarcity. The direct consequence is that we have to fight with each other in order to survive." Would anyone care to hazard a guess as to why the money creators at the top of the food chain choose to maintain this system?

countrychick -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/21/2010 10:58:47 PM)
quote: Yes, scarcity is a reality. However, as I presume you've read, the actual designer of the EU currency system openly admitted that scarcity in the monetary systems is intentional. What do you suppose is their motivation for maintaining scarcity? Because without scarcity, money holds no value. See the German example after World War II when there was so much money around they could burn it for heat because it held little other value. By allowing it to be more scarce it takes on value which allows us to use it to purchase goods that are made from, you guessed it, scarce resources because the planet only can make so much.

countrychick -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/21/2010 11:00:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Numerous industry studies (those who have a vested interest in pushing your premis) have shown that the amount of energy saved by consumers turning off lights and so forth when not in use causes minimal change in total electrical usage. Electricity is really quite cheap and easy to produce. I have not had a electric bill in 25 years and for the 25 years before that I had only the minimum charge because the municipality I lived in at that time required an electrical,water and sewer connection to each habitable dwelling no matter if you used them or not. Okay so you haven't had an electrical bill in 25 years, thats awesome, what are you doing to generate electricity? How can we adapt it so that everyone in the country/world can use it? I'm all for it if there is an option there :)

countrychick -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/21/2010 11:07:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage quote: "The extermination and concentration of the bison" is by Dean Lueck and appears in the Journal of Legal Studies, June 2002. Why are you using a legal study to discuss a historical phenomenon? It clearly says in the abstract that this is a study done "using a property rights model of renewable resource production." Furthermore, I haven't read the whole thread, nor do I wish to, but as far as I can see, you keep saying you're working on your Masters degree, but in what? Are you working on an MS or an MA? What is your field? I'm not seeing this information anywhere. Alright, for a whole second there, I almost thought you were credible until this: quote: Sure when there is human excrement floating down the river we'll blame the big coal mines..come on now. Are you fucking kidding me? Are you really this ignorant? When I initially saw the word excrement in your original post, I thought you really intended to refer to the pollution caused by coal mining sources. But this is ridiculous! Name your source for this ludicrous bit of BS. I'm not going to bother to read the rest of what you've written because I can see that it's not worth wasting my time on. I'm taking my MSc in Agricultural Economics at a Canadian University. Yes in the abstract it says that, of course. The author procedes to use various historical resources to present his case as you read through the article. At any rate, I don't disagree that coal mining causes pollution but what I was refering to is the case in the Appalachias which a professor of mine actually studied (on the ground, with the people, there's even a video documenting the research and solutions) in which the streams and rivers of an old mining town were being polluted by straight pipe sewage systems. I am not talking about the huge mining outfits, but the poor regions of Kentucky where people live near the mines and the communities are thus affected. I apologize that I wasn't clearer on that, I mistakenly assumed that people would know what I was refering to. They put in a community run sewage treatment facility because a septic system for individual homes wasn't an option due to the close proximity of the homes.

countrychick -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/21/2010 11:10:49 PM)
On a completely philosophical note, what are the options for fixing the system? I'll agree that its not perfect, it does have a certain tendency to make the rich richer and the poor poorer While radical ideas for a complete overhaul of a system may seem nice in theory, in practicality they would be all but impossible. I've been thinking over the past few days, are the compromises that could be made? That encompass the ideas of the video, working more towards a system that does not have such disproportions among people? I think this is where the real strength is in society, those people who can arbitrage between the far left and the far right to come up with something that neither really loves but that in the end does provide a greater good to the people.. Any ideas?

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/21/2010 11:30:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: countrychick Because without scarcity, money holds no value. See the German example after World War II when there was so much money around they could burn it for heat because it held little other value. By allowing it to be more scarce it takes on value which allows us to use it to purchase goods that are made from, you guessed it, scarce resources because the planet only can make so much. Actually, the planet isn't the problem. There's more than enough of everything we need; we just aren't clever enough to use it efficiently enough yet. Carbon is an amazing element. You can make a phenomenally diverse array of substances out of it. And there's obviously enough to go around. Likewise, the sun is an incredibly intense source of energy, once we learn to tap it properly. In the meantime, we have enough uranium and thorium to easily last us the next several thousand years, even if we continue to increase our energy demands exponentially. There's enough to go around. What we need is the will to use the resources we have available right now effectively, and the intelligence to find newer, more efficient, more clever ways to access and utilize those resources. Stick some U-238 traveling-wave reactor plants every few miles along the coast, and use them to crack seawater. You'll get all your necessary metallics right out of the water you're desalinating, and produce 200 times enough water to meet the world's drinking and agriculture needs. Use the extra power to pull CO2 right out of the air, solving all our greenhouse problems and giving us more carbon than we know what to do with - pour some more power into that CO2, and it'll make all sorts of fun long-chain molecules. Remember that all chemical processes work both ways - if a fuel cell or a car engine can turn carbohydrates into CO2 and energy, than a "reverse fuel cell" can be fed energy to turn CO2 back into fuel (and from there, into plastic or whatever else we want). If we had the will, we could right now begin a process that would end all forms of scarcity, and that would settle into a completely sustainable process. We just need to think practically and intelligently about our options.

countrychick -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/21/2010 11:38:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth quote: ORIGINAL: countrychick Because without scarcity, money holds no value. See the German example after World War II when there was so much money around they could burn it for heat because it held little other value. By allowing it to be more scarce it takes on value which allows us to use it to purchase goods that are made from, you guessed it, scarce resources because the planet only can make so much. Actually, the planet isn't the problem. There's more than enough of everything we need; we just aren't clever enough to use it efficiently enough yet. Carbon is an amazing element. You can make a phenomenally diverse array of substances out of it. And there's obviously enough to go around. Likewise, the sun is an incredibly intense source of energy, once we learn to tap it properly. In the meantime, we have enough uranium and thorium to easily last us the next several thousand years, even if we continue to increase our energy demands exponentially. There's enough to go around. What we need is the will to use the resources we have available right now effectively, and the intelligence to find newer, more efficient, more clever ways to access and utilize those resources. Stick some U-238 traveling-wave reactor plants every few miles along the coast, and use them to crack seawater. You'll get all your necessary metallics right out of the water you're desalinating, and produce 200 times enough water to meet the world's drinking and agriculture needs. Use the extra power to pull CO2 right out of the air, solving all our greenhouse problems and giving us more carbon than we know what to do with - pour some more power into that CO2, and it'll make all sorts of fun long-chain molecules. Remember that all chemical processes work both ways - if a fuel cell or a car engine can turn carbohydrates into CO2 and energy, than a "reverse fuel cell" can be fed energy to turn CO2 back into fuel (and from there, into plastic or whatever else we want). If we had the will, we could right now begin a process that would end all forms of scarcity, and that would settle into a completely sustainable process. We just need to think practically and intelligently about our options. Okay, but how long to get all of these things up and running? At what cost and to whom? And can we make food out of carbon? Can we create clothing from carbon? Honestly I don't know and I'm hoping you can tell me that. Theoretically perhaps this could work but the question is how to we get it there? And what sorts of negative affects on ocean life among other things will these U-238 reactors have? I dont think we would ever end all forms of scarcity.. not in our life times and I dont think in our childrens either. Look at the poverty within your own country let alone around the world. As a planet haven't we been working on things like that for years and years now? There will always be red-tape issues, political divisions even things as trivial as religious beliefs and cultural backgrounds already do hold up progress. What are the solutions to that?

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/21/2010 11:51:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: countrychick Okay, but how long to get all of these things up and running? At what cost and to whom? We're already working on it, it's just going a bit slowly. And it all takes an initial resource investment before resources become meaningless, which is part of the problem. quote: And can we make food out of carbon? It's been said, only half-jokingly, that "modern agriculture is the process of using land to turn petroleum into food." The primary limiting factor for modern agriculture is fertilization and power for the heavy machinery, both of which can (and are!) made from crude oil and other reasonably abundant natural resources (fertilizer needs nitrogen as well, but nitrogen's even more abundant than carbon) quote: Can we create clothing from carbon? Oh yes. Vinyl, rayon, nylon, latex? All plastic-based fabrics. quote: Honestly I don't know and I'm hoping you can tell me that. Theoretically perhaps this could work but the question is how to we get it there? And what sorts of negative affects on ocean life among other things will these U-238 reactors have? The reactors aren't in the ocean; they're on the coast. The only polution that you ever get from a properly-run nuclear reactor is thermal; contrast that with a coal plant, which actually puts out a nasty amount of radioactive pollutants (far more than the Palo Verde nuclear plant a few miles north of me, and that sucker puts out more power than 50 coal plants even at 10% capacity!) That said, there's likely to be a bit of disruption, yes, but not nearly as much as what we're already doing with greenhouse gasses and oil spills and what-not. It'd be a net win for the environment. quote: I dont think we would ever end all forms of scarcity.. not in our life times and I dont think in our childrens either. Look at the poverty within your own country let alone around the world. As a planet haven't we been working on things like that for years and years now? There will always be red-tape issues, political divisions even things as trivial as religious beliefs and cultural backgrounds already do hold up progress. That is the real problem. The United States alone produces enough food to feed the whole world, and has since the 1950's. There is no reason, resource-wise, why anyone should ever go hungry. The will just isn't there, and the logistics are problematic. quote: What are the solutions to that? Time. Time and cleverness. People horde because they want power, and they want power because they're afraid of going without. As more and more things become so cheap they may as well be free, the power bases slowly corrode. Eventually there won't be enough of the old monsters left to maintain the chokehold.

subfever -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/22/2010 7:38:28 AM)
quote: How much longer does he think we can feed everyone, and what will they be eating? ... I don't know, he's the architect of the EU monetary system, not the resource-based ecomony theory.

subfever -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/22/2010 7:43:24 AM)
quote: Because without scarcity, money holds no value. See the German example after World War II when there was so much money around they could burn it for heat because it held little other value. By allowing it to be more scarce it takes on value which allows us to use it to purchase goods that are made from, you guessed it, scarce resources because the planet only can make so much. That was after WW1. Weimar Germany's hyperinflation. The point is, the system requires scarcity to remain intact. It requires that regardless of human behavior, there will never be enough to go around. There will always be competition and greed. There will always be "losers" in the system, and anxiety, and despair.

thompsonx -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/22/2010 9:23:26 AM)
Okay so you haven't had an electrical bill in 25 years, thats awesome, what are you doing to generate electricity? How can we adapt it so that everyone in the country/world can use it? I'm all for it if there is an option there :) I use solar electric and solar hydronic. Both are scalable and are well proven, off the shelf, technologies.

subfever -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/22/2010 9:38:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: countrychick On a completely philosophical note, what are the options for fixing the system? I'll agree that its not perfect, it does have a certain tendency to make the rich richer and the poor poorer While radical ideas for a complete overhaul of a system may seem nice in theory, in practicality they would be all but impossible. I've been thinking over the past few days, are the compromises that could be made? That encompass the ideas of the video, working more towards a system that does not have such disproportions among people? I think this is where the real strength is in society, those people who can arbitrage between the far left and the far right to come up with something that neither really loves but that in the end does provide a greater good to the people.. Any ideas? I don't believe it's realistic for me or anyone to expect anything other than a very small percentage of people to wholly embrace the concepts of a RBE (resource-based economy) upon initial exposure to it. After all, it's contrary to almost everything we've all been lead to believe. It also challenges the identities of those who are entrenched into the current system, which include the vast majority. Very few of us make 180 degree turns overnight on any position, let alone one which directly challenges us emotionally. There are steps we take when dealing with emotional challenges, and compromise is one of those steps. However, as one continues to keep an open mind towards a sustainable planet and humanity as a whole, while examining our current system for what it truly is, the concepts of a RBE become more appealing. One begins to understand that a monetary/profit system will never serve a sustainable planet and humanity as a whole.

subfever -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/22/2010 9:49:53 AM)
quote: People horde because they want power, and they want power because they're afraid of going without. Bingo! More food for thought, most of us today live better than kings did several generations ago. Technology is the answer, not politics or religion. Yet, as a resource-based economy matures, the resulting society will be similiar to what most religious tenents strived for. How ironic.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/22/2010 1:11:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: People horde because they want power, and they want power because they're afraid of going without. Bingo! More food for thought, most of us today live better than kings did several generations ago. YAY! My meme is spreading! Did you hear this as the "strawberries in winter" parable?

subfever -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/22/2010 3:26:08 PM)
quote: minimal change in total electrical usage. Electricity is really quite cheap and easy to produce. I have not had a electric bill in 25 years and for the 25 years before that I had only the minimum charge because the municipality I lived in at that time required an electrical,water and sewer connection to each habitable dwelling no matter if you used them or not. quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: People horde because they want power, and they want power because they're afraid of going without. Bingo! More food for thought, most of us today live better than kings did several generations ago. YAY! My meme is spreading! Did you hear this as the "strawberries in winter" parable? No, I picked it up from Jacque Fresco. Do share your meme with us... here, if it's relevant to the thread... or as a new OP, if it isn't.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Food for Thought - Moving Towards A Resource-Based Economy (3/22/2010 9:53:07 PM)
Strawberries. I can walk down to the corner store, throw down $4.00 - less than half an hour's wages - and buy a box of strawberries. In the middle of winter. Not even the Sun King, Louis the XIV of France, could command his subjects to bring him fresh strawberries out of season.

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