Not out of submission

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allthatjaz -> Not out of submission (3/17/2010 9:20:35 AM)
Stephen said something to me the other night that got me wondering. He said 'Im glad your not submissive but I am so glad your the person that you are' When we met I was fully aware that he had been dominant to other women but I was clear from the start that I was not submissive. I have gone on to submit to the moment during play and before anyone pulls me up on 'play' can I just say, we call it play but its not a game. Stephen is very particular about things and I have never had a man with high standards in my life before. He knows how he wants things and is incredibly decisive and yet he wants a woman in his life to be just as particular and just as decisive as him. He works hard and when he comes home I want him to have his creature comforts. I make his life very comfortable and I enjoy doing it but when I am doing it I am not feeling submissive, just giving back. I think about the wonderful things I can cook for him, I enjoy making things neat and tidy and yet I do all of this without feeling submission but more a feeling that he has earned it. I don't talk to him like I talked to my ex's, I don't tell him to 'shsssst' if he makes a lot of noise when he gets up in the morning. I don't demand anything, talk disrespectfully to him or try to win arguments with him but I don't behave like that because I am feeling submissive. I do it because I respect him. I know what he likes and clear what he doesn't like. That never changes. I do those things for him with the greatest of pleasure because he's proud of me and shows it. He never demands anything but it is so easy to give him because he never falters, never changes and so I am very clear. I also do these things for him because he has high expectations and insists we live by them. Those expectations are similar to my own. We are on equal terms. Nobody is the boss because we clearly lead one another and yet if my life was televised Dominants would say that I was a well behaved submissive. If he turned to me and demanded I sat at his feet or even tried to tell me that he was in charge, then I would be having serious words with him but he has never misinterpreted what this is about I was thinking about my grandparents and how our lives seem very similar to theirs. He was the worker and she kept the house. They clearly adored one another as a team that played very different roles. The difference is, we do it with an understanding about all of this lifestyle. We understand about submission, about dominance, about BDSM and everything in between. We are totally open minded individuals that have some fun with some of it and disguard what we don't want. It would be interesting to know what a dominants views are on this? Do you think I'm a closet submissive? Am I less than a submissive? Do you understand how this sort of dynamic could work?

bliss4us09 -> RE: Not out of submission (3/17/2010 10:05:06 AM)
You say that you would be having words with him if he demanded something you didn't like or tried to assert that he was in charge - that makes me think you're not a sub. The true test of submission is precisely at that point - submitting to something you don't want or enjoy simply because the Dom asked/demanded. But I wonder if this has actually happened yet. It's one thing to say you'd resist and another to actually do it.

robertolapiedra -> RE: Not out of submission (3/17/2010 10:45:52 AM)
Hello allthatjaz. For what it is worth, you are not ''his'' submissive when you comply for a reason or to please, you are ''his'' submissive because you enjoy complying. I once heard someone say she doe's not enjoy being dominated but enjoys submitting in the most intense fashion. The way I see it, it is called kink but it is not necessarily ''submitting'' in a Ds relationship. Some women derive great pleasure in pleasing their spouses. That is not submission even if sometimes it may ''seem'' like it. Doing stuff you like for your pleasure is not compliance. In your case, if it happens that you comply for the ''satisfaction'' of being compliant? you are submissive. It does not depend on the dominant, it only depends on you, and what you bring to the relationship. Look for ''desire'' that stems from the thought of compliance and stop analyzing or try to put a label on it. Either it is there or it is not. The rest has to do with intensity, breath and scope. As for ''not feeling submissive'' just ''giving back'', if you think that feeling submissive equates with feeling ''humble'' or small sure, you may not feel ''submissive''. Most submissive feel ''pride'', satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment when they comply. Do you sometimes feel this way? If so, you are submissive, albeit not in the slave mode. I suggest you should not worry about the label and just keep doing what you do. What is important is having a respectful fulfilling relationship, who cares if it's in the mold or not? Just have fun and don't worry about what it is or what it looks like. Anyway, it will slowly but surely define itself with time. My opinion? I think you are a submissive, but only one of many types of submissive. If your type is not found in the fantasy world, (story of O, Gor, master slave novels and porn etc) maybe it is found in the real world with the hundreds of different flavours and styles that suit less spectacular but happy Ds people. RL

NihilusZero -> RE: Not out of submission (3/17/2010 11:15:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz If he turned to me and demanded I sat at his feet or even tried to tell me that he was in charge, then I would be having serious words with him but he has never misinterpreted what this is about Curious: You mention doing the tidying, preparation and attending to him when he gets home because he's "earned it". In the above quoted example, would you refuse it if he asked because: a) he hasn't earned it, b) he actually asked/requested it, c) it seems partially insulting to you, or d) it would be contrary to something he has already told you to expect in the relationship? quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz It would be interesting to know what a dominants views are on this? Do you think I'm a closet submissive? Maybe. Maybe not. You appear to be attentively and overtly doting and interested in making him happy. That can cover a whole lot of sub and non-sub territory, though. I'd probably boil it down to analyzing how many household decisions are made via committee and how many are done with him deciding for you both. As far as if you're in the "closet", the answers you give to my first paragraph at the top here might help with that. quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz Am I less than a submissive? Do you understand how this sort of dynamic could work? It brings up an interesting thought: at the point where a D/s or M/s relationship has arrived at enough attunement, it may not seem like it anymore. At the point where I can see my slave's thoughts, views and decisions mirroring where mine would go, there isn't necessarily the need for dominance of submission because we've already arrived at a place where the values and results are mutually understood. I'd say it's a combination of that attunement and that fact that you aren't naturally (adjective) submissive that makes your situation seem a little unusual. But unusual is good. [:)]

Lashra -> RE: Not out of submission (3/17/2010 4:08:05 PM)
I think that you are YOU and you are happy with your life so, why put a label on it? Just be happy doing what your doing and live your life with this person who makes you feel incredible. In the long run the labels do not matter, what does matter is that you lived your life on your own terms. ~Lashra

Missokyst -> RE: Not out of submission (3/17/2010 5:26:43 PM)
points up that answer I was being flippant when I said that but it really is true. My grandmother doted on Grandpa Jay. It has nothing to do with submission, or the fact he went out and worked. Heck.. she had her own restaurant when they met. It had everything to do with their relationship. They cared for eachother. They looked at the needs of their mate. If things were a hardship, they were a hardship together. In the old fashioned way of doing things, it was easier to find a pattern of what made things work. It was respect for one another and respect for the relationship they shared. Now it seems to be a big deal to cater to your mate without putting a label on it. I have often said I could be nilla because my mentality is to cater to my mate regardless of whether or not there was kink involved. It is that old fashioned background that lingers and has nothing to do with kink.

heartcream -> RE: Not out of submission (3/17/2010 6:29:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra I think that you are YOU and you are happy with your life so, why put a label on it? Just be happy doing what your doing and live your life with this person who makes you feel incredible. In the long run the labels do not matter, what does matter is that you lived your life on your own terms. ~Lashra Well said. Lashra although you are stunningly beautiful I really like your new avatar!

Elisabella -> RE: Not out of submission (3/17/2010 6:32:24 PM)
Something I'd like to point out - you say you don't demand anything of him, then later you say he never demands anything of you either. Would you consider that a 'submissive' trait in him, or just in yourself? Does he talk disrespectfully to you, or start arguments with you? If he doesn't...does that make him submissive? quote: We are on equal terms. Nobody is the boss because we clearly lead one another and yet if my life was televised Dominants would say that I was a well behaved submissive. If he turned to me and demanded I sat at his feet or even tried to tell me that he was in charge, then I would be having serious words with him but he has never misinterpreted what this is about I think this says it all - there's no power exchange in your relationship. Also there is a big difference between doing something because you're "the submissive" in the relationship and doing something because you don't want to cause a fight. One is a relationship role the other is a choice freely made. I think it's pretty natural for a woman to want to make the home a nice place for her man to come back to. And I mean 'natural' in the sense that it's something animals do too. quote: It would be interesting to know what a dominants views are on this? Do you think I'm a closet submissive? Am I less than a submissive? Do you understand how this sort of dynamic could work? I don't think you're "less than" a submissive but I also don't think you're a lifestyle submissive. I don't think I am either so I do understand how the dynamic works, and one thing I've noticed about myself is when I do something that might be shown as 'submissive' my reason is always focused in the other person - I'm doing it because I love them and want to make them happy. There's no internal motivation to submit, as a lot of submissives say they feel, that it makes them happy to submit or to serve. quote: I was thinking about my grandparents and how our lives seem very similar to theirs. He was the worker and she kept the house. They clearly adored one another as a team that played very different roles. The difference is, we do it with an understanding about all of this lifestyle. We understand about submission, about dominance, about BDSM and everything in between. We are totally open minded individuals that have some fun with some of it and disguard what we don't want. Right, and since you're pretty involved in BDSM lifestyle and events its natural for you to see things through that lens, but that's not the only interpretation. Most guys I've known liked to smack girls on the butt, that doesn't mean they're "dominant" and that they're into "spanking" - most often it just means they like to grab girls butts and that's a playful way of being able to do so. I think it's possible you're overthinking this - would your relationship really change if you realized you were "a submissive?" Anyway I think the most important part of your post is when you said that if he tried to say he was in charge or tried to tell you to act like a stereotypical submissive you'd be turned off. That's all there is to it.

Lashra -> RE: Not out of submission (3/17/2010 9:29:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartcream quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra I think that you are YOU and you are happy with your life so, why put a label on it? Just be happy doing what your doing and live your life with this person who makes you feel incredible. In the long run the labels do not matter, what does matter is that you lived your life on your own terms. ~Lashra Well said. Lashra although you are stunningly beautiful I really like your new avatar! Thank you [:)] ~Lashra

Smutmonger -> RE: Not out of submission (3/17/2010 10:49:35 PM)
The happiest times together are when both feel it worthy to submit to the relationship.

allthatjaz -> RE: Not out of submission (3/18/2010 3:19:30 AM)
Firstly can I just thank everyone for such well thought out replies bliss4us. He has asked me to do certain things I’m not keen on and I have done those things but not before sitting down and talking through the problems. Nothing is demanded unless it was for my own safety such as going on the deck of the boat in a storm without a line on. He has no interest in demanding and I have no interest in answering to demands. robertolapiedra. I very much feel pride, satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment when I comply but then I only comply if I believe its for our good, his good or my good and will help us along in life. I would not comply to demands and if he tried pulling a fast one on me by trying to show he had the upper hand, then none of this would work. Its interesting that you believe I am a submissive of sorts. I am not against being a ‘submissive of sorts!’ Hi NihilusZero. Interesting question! and I answer as follows. To earn it he needs to be the caring, giving and devoted guy that he is. If he wasn’t caring, giving or devoted then I very probably wouldn’t feel that he had earned it. Tends to go along with ‘a’ really because he never actually needs to ask and if he did ask then I would have to look at the reasons why I was losing touch with wanting to do things off the cuff. I don’t feel a need to please him but I do feel compelled to put a huge amount of effort in to make our lives easy. Yes, but that is my sense of pride. He gives me and I give back. I appreciate him and he appreciates me. If he were to keep asking me to do things I probably wouldn’t! All this comes from a happy energy and not from demands. I’m not sure I understand this question? ‘mirroring’ is a good word. We very much mirror one another. He knows what we need to make life run smoothly and visa versa and it all tends to go on without discussion. Our decisions balance out pretty evenly but we always consider one another in the making of those decisions. Lashra. Yes we are happy and I’m certainly not trying to put a label on it. I think we are just an interesting bi product. There is obviously an interest in the D/s (though in our case that is probably the wrong word) side. If there wasn’t, I wouldn’t be in here asking questions. Missokyst. I have to put my hand up and say that I never catered for my mate in the past, not like this anyway. When I look back it was all very selfish and none of it flowed. The interesting psychology behind my relationship is that its stemmed from years on the scene. Years of tasting different things and I believe that if I hadn’t taken this particular journey, I would never of reached this point of inner karma but just carried on resisting it. This isn’t just a person I decided to become but a person that has developed away from nilla land and I believe that if I had remained in nilla land I would never of allowed myself into the person I am now. Elisabella. Thats a good point and the answer is a clear ‘no’ He doesn’t talk disrespectfully to me but he also doesn’t ever imply that he is the boss and neither do I. I don’t do these things because I don’t want to cause a fight. There would be no fight. We both came out of relationships like that and its not a place that either of us would be willing to tread. I also don’t do things because I have to, I do them because I want to. My motivation comes from an all round energy and not from the desire to please but when that motivation is appreciated, which it always is, I feel a lot of self satisfaction. You could even call it egotistic. Steves ex relationships were with submissive women. My ex relationships were with submissive men and women. We have both had our share of ‘do me subs’ and both had our share of some very pleasant submission. I often laugh when I observe Stephen and say ‘you have to be the most dominant men I have ever met Your just not my dominant!’ You would have to know him to understand that but in short its all about leadership and the ability to be ever consistent. He also has the ability to lead me and yet I never feel submissive when he does, I just see it as the right thing to do for our good. I’m a leader too and having 2 leaders together could be a train wreck but its not. I understand what he wants out of life and out of his woman and I happily comply to that and he understands (because our minds are very similar) what I want out of life and my man and he happily merges with me. We just don’t need to sit at one another feet to do that and yet interestingly we have a huge amount of control over not only ourselves but each other. We also both agree that we could never of made it in vanilla land because we could never of understood the deep meaning of what is going on here. Both of us would of resisted it. We also know that in our past relationships we have been 'too' controlling. What often happens when your too controlling is your submissive goes into a very deep space and can become vulnerable (emotionally). You then unintentionally end up with a relationship very different than the one you started off with and the whole thing falls out of kilter. I am not trying to box what I am, what he is or we are. I'm fascinated by it because it should of never worked.

Fitznicely -> RE: Not out of submission (3/18/2010 3:34:10 AM)
There's a tendency, a very pervasive tendency to view everything through kink-tinted spectacles. The fact is, you are in a good, solid, healthy relationship where all your needs and desires are met with joy and relish. If you feel the need to call it something, call it "good", it doesn't need to be anything else.

crazyml -> RE: Not out of submission (3/18/2010 3:43:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz It would be interesting to know what a dominants views are on this? Do you think I'm a closet submissive? Am I less than a submissive? Do you understand how this sort of dynamic could work? No, I don't think you're a closet sub, and I don't think that you're more or less than a submissive - you're you! It sounds like you've got a wonderful relationship. Your allusion to your grandparents makes me want to explore the idea of "traditional" relationships - 50's household or Head of Household because I'm wondering if you have shades of those in your relationship. That said.. I don't get the impression that you need to analyse things over much, seems to me you've both got a rockin gig! (Jealous!) Oh and... quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra I think that you are YOU and you are happy with your life so, why put a label on it? Just be happy doing what your doing and live your life with this person who makes you feel incredible. In the long run the labels do not matter, what does matter is that you lived your life on your own terms. ~Lashra This rocks.

allthatjaz -> RE: Not out of submission (3/18/2010 5:01:56 AM)
Lol crazyml, when I raised a topic on 50s household some time back, it was all looked upon very negatively. I think there is an element of 50s style going on. I love doing mundane tasks and setting routine. He loves doing all those heavy and laborious tasks that I just don't have the strength or know how to do. I love it that he is able to put his hand to virtually anything. I'm constantly in awe of him! He loves the way I make his life so comfortable and that I am able to recognize his moods. I don't nag. I think I used to in previous relationships but perhaps thats because I wasn't listened to in the first place! Sounds very vanilla doesn't it?!?! Nothing changes when our fem sub is with us. I don't suddenly stop being me and become all dominant and neither does he and yet interestingly, the feed back from her is that we are both very mentally dominant towards her! This makes me think that theres a lot going on but its all very subconscious. When we first went poly, we did so with 2 other females (at separate times). We changed when they were within our four walls and both of us felt ultimately very uncomfortable with that. When mj came along we refused to do that and it all just panned out fine.

CaringandReal -> RE: Not out of submission (3/18/2010 5:51:50 AM)
How old is the relationship, Allthatjaz? Also, do you feel any erotic feelings when you are "making his life very comfortable?" Sexually, are you always the submissive or do you guys switch? quote: ORIGINAL: bliss4us09 You say that you would be having words with him if he demanded something you didn't like or tried to assert that he was in charge - that makes me think you're not a sub. The true test of submission is precisely at that point - submitting to something you don't want or enjoy simply because the Dom asked/demanded. But I wonder if this has actually happened yet. It's one thing to say you'd resist and another to actually do it. I tend to agree with the above. With any relationship, bdsm, not, or something in-between, trials tend to bring out the core dynamics because they upset the way you are normally used to doing things or relating to the other person. When everything's "relatively" smooth sailing, the sort of relating you describe, Allthatjaz, is easy and natural, especially with two people who are compatible on a lot of levels, as you two appear to be. When things get rough, and I hope they never do for you, but I suspect they do for all people, sometimes different sides of your personalites emerge. Also, the fact that you both feel burned by submissives becoming emotionally vulnerable under extensive control is a salient point, IMO. I think you may both be specifically avoiding that with each other, because it didn't work for either of you in past relationships. (It does work, spectacularly in fact, for some power exchanges, btw, just not for all.) I've known a few couples similar to yourselves, very personally compatible and also burned out with standard kinky people and the resulting relationships. Sometimes such people, especially if they've emerged from some really ugly personal experiences, feel a strong need not to put a label on happiness, when they find it, for fear of harming it. While this is not rational (it gives words far more power than they deserve, in my opinion) I've always experienced this desire not to label or be labeled to be a wholesome and quite useful attitude to assume in such a circumstance. If something's practical and it works, there's no need to mess with the "whys" of it or others' opinions that it "shouldn't" work because of rationale a, b, or c. I choose to live a very different sort of life (I am one of those "emotionally vulnerable" sorts who seeks out those who are "too"--could there be such a thing, lol?--controlling, but one who remains consciously rational and self-observing during the process) and I can't count the number of times I heard, about my master and I, "that relationship cannot work." So I just smiled to myself and thought, except it does, and has, for so very many years. NihilusZero said: "It brings up an interesting thought: at the point where a D/s or M/s relationship has arrived at enough attunement, it may not seem like it anymore. At the point where I can see my slave's thoughts, views and decisions mirroring where mine would go, there isn't necessarily the need for dominance of submission because we've already arrived at a place where the values and results are mutually understood." I've experienced that before. It caused a crisis relatively early (year five or six?) in my former relationship. From the submissive point of view, this attunement (which is perfectly natural in compatible people who are very intimate) feels like the dominant is slacking off, not controlling you anymore. If you need control, erotically and/or emotionally, that can make one feel very unhappy. For someone who doesn't need to feel put in her place or seflishly used or trodden upon (smile), this may not be a big deal. But it was to me and may be to people who thrive on a short leash. In that situation, my dominant resolved the conflict by sitting me down and taking several hours to point out to me how severely and strictly my life and decisions were actually curtailed. He literally went on for hours, listing all the ways my life was differnt than a vanilla woman's, even a happy vanilla woman in a traditional relationship. It was... convincing. I had just lost track of that fact, and continued to lose track of it in the future, though never as badly as that first time. We were just very attuned (I'd adopted all of his values and goals as my own), he had an easygoing, relaxed style of dominance, and for many years, fate smiled upon us and things went so smoothly. It was quite easy to forget that I was controlled in so many big and small ways.

allthatjaz -> RE: Not out of submission (3/18/2010 8:48:06 AM)
CaringandReal, ty If anyone asks Steve how long we have been together and we get asked that a lot, he always says ‘forever’ It feels like we have been together forever, like we are old souls that came out of the same mold! Neither of us are spring chickens anymore. We have had our share of life without one another and I believe we have both learnt a great deal from that. Neither of us had a perfect vision of what a great life meant but the one thing we both knew (before we met) was that we hadn't found what we were looking for. When I met Steve it was never with the intention of him becoming my dominant. That hasn't changed. He was certainly not looking for a dominant woman. For a start he's far too head strong. What I needed was someone who was capable of leading but equally he needed a woman who had the ability to lead too and the only place we could find that was within the lifestyle, though even then I think its a fluke that we met! The reason I see dominance in Stephen is because I see no weakness. There are no half measures or undecidedness. He never says something unless he means it and he’s always clear and precise. When I watch him with mj its interesting. His character is still the same, nothing is put on. I find her submissive reactions amusing in a way because they are similar to my own and yet there is something totally different going on inside her head than mine. She melts at his words whereas I think ‘ah yes that makes sense’ I know he needs mj. He needs that sort of submission in his life that I can’t give him but he needs a lot more too and one of those things is a woman who will not continually look up to him for leadership but who is prepared to take the helm. I need mj too. I see her submission as beautiful and very exciting but its just another wonderful part of our life. She is part of a unit that makes all of this work. We have hit rough times. We were together when our 28 ton boat sunk, we were together when we hit a three day storm out in the Atlantic, we were together when we lost everything on board and were left destitute. We were together when we didn’t know where our next meal was coming from and we were together when we built a tepee (our only home at the time) and danced around it singing ‘we are the luckiest people in the world’ We had nothing and yet we had so much! Times are easier now but many tests were put in front of us that would of made others run.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Not out of submission (3/18/2010 10:32:38 AM)
Two riders race through an equestrian course, one is sitting atop a muscled horse who resists but the rider spurs the horse into obedience, manhandling the reins to guide it where it clearly resists going. The other rider lacks the forcefulness of the former, his stance and style seem almost passive, the reins seem almost limp, at times it even seems like the horse is choosing the path rather than the rider. Who is the dominant rider and who is the submissive? A talented rider with a horse he has ridden for years move like one animal, each knowing the other intimately, responding to each other at a level that is almost, and in some cases may be, subconscious. However, it wasn't always like that, the horse had to be trained, the rider's commands course and even perhaps awkward, the horse balked at some, hesitated at others as the trust and experience with each other wasn't there yet. For some, mastering the massive animal and bending it to their will is how they experience dominance, for others they see the seamless blending of two people, ALMOST as equals, to be how they experience dominance. Frankly, I don't see one as better than the other but I very much see them as different. I wanted to add, that after experiencing the latter, I know for me, that I am not interested in the former and while one can't expect that sort of seamless blending, I think that one can certainly tell when it is, or isn't, likely.

allthatjaz -> RE: Not out of submission (3/19/2010 1:53:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael For some, mastering the massive animal and bending it to their will is how they experience dominance, for others they see the seamless blending of two people, ALMOST as equals, to be how they experience dominance. Frankly, I don't see one as better than the other but I very much see them as different. I wanted to add, that after experiencing the latter, I know for me, that I am not interested in the former and while one can't expect that sort of seamless blending, I think that one can certainly tell when it is, or isn't, likely. Hi Michael, I just quoted this bit because its the part I liked most. As someone who spent years as a professional horse rider I very much relate to what you are saying here. To find harmony we needed trust, patience and a language we both understand. Horse training often reminds me of dominance and submission. For both to work it has to be incredibly subtle and constant. Take a dressage horse that dances under its Masters hands, so eloquently, so easily and yet if we put someone else on that same ballerina she will test him, play with him to find out if he can handle her and if he can't then she will become a handful that will alarm him and annoy him. He will then hand the reins away saying 'call this a horse? its a monster!'

Andalusite -> RE: Not out of submission (3/20/2010 1:05:04 PM)
Even when I'm not submissive toward someone, I like pleasing my partner, and doing things for them. From the outside, it can be difficult to tell the difference between bottoming and submission, and between people-pleasing and submission. Internally, the motivations and headspace feel quite different, though. If you don't experience submissive feelings at those times, I'd venture to guess you weren't being submissive, and there's nothing wrong with that!

DesFIP -> RE: Not out of submission (3/22/2010 8:31:04 AM)
I think it's semantics. If he's leading and you're following, that's submission. You don't have to be wet and gooey all the time. I'm not. I follow him because he makes better decisions than I do and he takes better care of me than I take of myself. I'm better off in his hands instead of on my own. Now if he's glad you aren't one of those submissives who says "yes master" even when she sees he's making a massive mistake, then I'd say he's smart. But just because you aren't submissive to others doesn't mean you aren't submissive to him. My daughter's show horse doesn't submit to her because he dotes on her. He does what she tells him to do because he feels safe with her in charge. Her cues are clear and precise and he knows exactly what is being asked of him and that he won't be asked to do anything he's incapable of. At the same time, when it's been a really long day and he can't handle another class, he makes that clear to her that he's done and she scratches. The fact that she listens when he makes it clear he's too tired and frazzled doesn't make her submissive, it makes her a responsible horse owner.

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