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RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 6:42:49 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

This isnt about wealth Butch, its about attachment to wealth and freedom only being possible if you have no attachment.

The destitute are truly free, but not if theyre attached to wealth, which is what drives the hate you mention.

E


I guess I don't understand...wealth or lack of it... is the same as the fear of loosing it...or for that manner gaining it... it is the want for security... and wealth provides it.

The poor are not free because they have no wealth... what do you mean by free? Free to starve... free to be uncomfortable...free to fear for your safety... free to see your children suffer...which free are you talking about.

Do you know anyone that is destitute that does not wish for wealth?

Butch


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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 6:44:42 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


Last June I had Major surgery and I wasn't afraid of dying on the table. I just thought to myself, "whatever happens, happens and a million years from now who's going to give a shit anyway?"



Million years hell tomorrow who would care...I don't mean that as personal...life always goes on.

Butc

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 6:45:50 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Freedom is not freedom if one is attached to anything - if one fears its loss or desires to acquire it. Ultimately this extends to self preservation too - one is only free if one is unafraid to die.

Think along the lines of "the love of money" being the root of all evil, and the various pronouncements of that Yeshu Ben Yusuf.

E

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RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 6:50:00 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Freedom is not freedom if one is attached to anything - if one fears its loss or desires to acquire it. Ultimately this extends to self preservation too - one is only free if one is unafraid to die.

Think along the lines of "the love of money" being the root of all evil, and the various pronouncements of that Yeshu Ben Yusuf.

E



I would agree with this which is why Buddhism teaches nonattachment...

That concept encompasses everything.. no attachment to other people, to places, to things, even attachment to one's own existence...

When one can cast off all of this attachment they reach Nirvana and "freedom"... good luck to those trying, it is a pretty tall order...

Now I am off to take my attached ass to a local Irish pub to drink some Irish beer, and eat some Irish grub.. Happy Saint Paddy's Day folks.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 6:53:31 PM   
heartcream


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< Message edited by heartcream -- 3/17/2010 7:09:13 PM >

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



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RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 6:54:35 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Freedom is not freedom if one is attached to anything - if one fears its loss or desires to acquire it. Ultimately this extends to self preservation too - one is only free if one is unafraid to die.

Think along the lines of "the love of money" being the root of all evil, and the various pronouncements of that Yeshu Ben Yusuf.

E



I would agree with this which is why Buddhism teaches nonattachment...

That concept encompasses everything.. no attachment to other people, to places, to things, even attachment to one's own existence...

When one can cast off all of this attachment they reach Nirvana and "freedom"... good luck to those trying, it is a pretty tall order...

Now I am off to take my attached ass to a local Irish pub to drink some Irish beer, and eat some Irish grub.. Happy Saint Paddy's Day folks.




Whoa, whoa, Julia, I can't be a Buddist if I drive a Caddy or a Lincoln?

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RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 7:04:05 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Where is Cucky? Dammit I only started this to get the "benefit" of his input (though the rest of you are of course appreciated).

Dont tell me that big bad Julia scared him off or the SS actually picked him up?

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 7:05:51 PM   
heartcream


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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		nm some more

< Message edited by heartcream -- 3/17/2010 7:09:52 PM >

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 7:08:30 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Why use free to describe a feeling like "not afraid to die"... to be free is to be unlimited not insane.

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 7:09:41 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Its not sarcasm HC - its genuine enough and the idea is to discuss why he's such an angry man and to hopefully get him to calm down before he kills himself or someone else with his vitriol. Whether thats with Buddhist ideas (as mainly expounded here) or the Christian version (which he ought to find more acceptable I reckon) is no matter. What matters is a soul in such obvious distress and causing so much distress (and amusement) to others that compassion must come into play and oblige at least an attempt at remedy.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 7:09:44 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		You do know gullible isnt in the dictionary dont you Heartcream???

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RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 7:11:21 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Why use free to describe a feeling like "not afraid to die"... to be free is to be unlimited not insane.


Being unafraid to die is not the same as having a desire to die nor the same as having no desire to live.

E



_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 7:11:39 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		I posted seriously to this thread not getting the nature of it. I took it out because I didnt realize this.

Haha Lucy you even got me, I was like "It isnt? Why not?" Yikes.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



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RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 7:18:01 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Hi Ellen,


Freedom as an all-encompassing term is an illusion; everything comes at a price.

The best a man (gender neutral) can aspire too are various degrees of personal sovereignty.

At the core, those that would be “free” strive to attain individual autonomy, subscribing to that cherished quest of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Beyond private dominion is the step to communal existence and being creatures of the pack we seek to belong; and in belonging there are always certain conditions to be considered to promote social harmony and community success. I would imagine that, at this point, common sense would lead us to understand that with the pack mentality we will have to “sacrifice” some degree of personal freedom.

While I believe a man should do all he can to establish and hold the greatest degree of personal sovereignty, responsibility and individual latitude, we cannot survive alone, not for all that long anyway.

Within my philosophical understandings what I deem as the most important personal freedom is the liberty to be “true” to yourself.

So freedom as a term should always be held in proper context and never assumed to be a unearned entitlement nor absolute.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 3/17/2010 7:32:46 PM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 7:20:21 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I understand where you are going LadyEllen but in practicality it is a pipe dream...When faced with death all sane people will be afraid...those that are not are seriously depressed and or mentally ill.

Even wishing death because of pain and quality of life does not mean the normal man or woman would be unafraid to die….just that they are more afraid to live

If someone tells me they’re unafraid to die they are just not there yet... my opinion of course.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 7:20:58 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I'd agree with that wholeheartedly Bull; I cant see anywhere I'd differ

But where is Cucky.........?

E



_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 8:02:26 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Where is Cucky? Dammit I only started this to get the "benefit" of his input (though the rest of you are of course appreciated).

Dont tell me that big bad Julia scared him off or the SS actually picked him up?

E


The latter is more probable than the former....

That is one crazy gator fucking lunatic bastard

Edited to add... I went to the pub, they were charging a 10 dolla mutha fuckin cover... who pays 10 bucks to order frickin dinner? So I passed that by and went home.. now I am drinking margaritas ..... it works for me


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/17/2010 8:04:20 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 8:03:31 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

I posted seriously to this thread not getting the nature of it. I took it out because I didnt realize this.

Haha Lucy you even got me, I was like "It isnt? Why not?" Yikes.

Heh I know how that feels HC believe me:)  I get stuff wrong, but I do learn....mostly

Lady E, you cant put a better bit of butter on your knife..???



_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to heartcream)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Freedom (2) - 3/17/2010 8:59:27 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Hi Ellen,


Freedom as an all-encompassing term is an illusion; everything comes at a price.

The best a man (gender neutral) can aspire too are various degrees of personal sovereignty.

At the core, those that would be “free” strive to attain individual autonomy, subscribing to that cherished quest of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Beyond private dominion is the step to communal existence and being creatures of the pack we seek to belong; and in belonging there are always certain conditions to be considered to promote social harmony and community success. I would imagine that, at this point, common sense would lead us to understand that with the pack mentality we will have to “sacrifice” some degree of personal freedom.

While I believe a man should do all he can to establish and hold the greatest degree of personal sovereignty, responsibility and individual latitude, we cannot survive alone, not for all that long anyway.

Within my philosophical understandings what I deem as the most important personal freedom is the liberty to be “true” to yourself.

So freedom as a term should always be held in proper context and never assumed to be a unearned entitlement nor absolute.


Liberty requires permission, its when a ship docks at port, freedom is of the will and in the public you are free to exercise your will to the extent  you do no personal or collateral injury.

what that means is if you want to walk around with a rocket launcher on your shoulder in the public as your weapon of choice for self defense then you have the freedom to do so as long as it does not injure an unintended other.

Sorta like in afghanstan until america shows them what real freedom is!  Like cant get the drugs you need to take care of yourself because some asshole doctor or the fda whatever decided you cant have them.

Begs the question of who is free.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: Freedom (2) - 3/18/2010 1:58:19 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I contend that freedom is impossible for anyone that is attached in any way to this world



I'd call that reality.

I doubt there's such a thing as 'freedom' in the traditional sense of its meaning...quite possibly illusory.......a human contortion that allows us to dream/set goals/and never tire of searching.......the hope that there's something out there worth striving for. Thomas Hobbes' claim that life is short/brutish/fearful......well Hobbes' ideas have come to fruition in governments around the world...he certainly wasn't out of touch with what it means to be a human being.

Perhaps freedom is rooted in acceptance.......acceptance of limited horizons. Some would see this as a strength and others a weakness. Being English..of course I will say it's a strength.



_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 40
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