RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment?

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wisdomtogive -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 6:22:09 AM)
NihilusZero, thank you for replying. I do have a question that perhaps you might consider answering. If after a time table has been set up, and you could see remarkable improvement within you s-type, what would you do if she needed a little bit more time to balance herself out? Would you continue with your D/s / M/s dynamic with her or release her. Thank you for considering answering. wisdomtogive

antinomy -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 6:27:14 AM)
I agree that rebellion is something that requires analysis and understanding; especially in an otherwise compatible relationship. I would think that punishment, without trying to ferret out the root cause, could cause even more problems. However, that said, I think it's important to deal with things in an 'acceptable' way. It's not so much the rebellion that would require punishment, as the way the rebellion manifested itself. If I'm an adult, in a respectful relationship with someone that I have agreed to give authority over me, and I rebel- I should still have enough control over my faculties to do it in a way that should not warrant punishment. To me, it's about self control, treating others with dignity, and not treating anyone in a fashion I would not want to be treated in. If, in my rebellion, I was so blinded as to forget any of that, I think I'd want to be punished. Not only would I feel better about it (absolution, as mentioned above); but, it would serve as a reminder to handle things differently in the future.

wisdomtogive -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 6:28:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlegirlangel The underlying causes are usually different and seem to come at a time when I'm changing drastically internally, either I'm reshifting old beliefs or a new trigger has popped up ect. This seems to be my case as well. It isn't that I am going out of my way to show disrespect, it is more of a wrestling or dueling swords within me. Communication is what he seeks and me learning to express myself well enough to explain what is going on in my head. Actually journaling, even though we live together, still is my best structure in doing this. He requires that I journal my thoughts and email to him. Thank you littlegirlangel for your remarks.

Hawkwindblues -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 6:37:07 AM)
It is great to know that Raven Shadowborne is still read. She and her household and the mailing list they had/have, was one of my first SM contacts on the net. Here is the link to the main site: http://www.leathernroses.com/ To the topic at hand i can not contribute.

wisdomtogive -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 6:38:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet Rebellion is a marker that tells us to evaluate ourselves, our relationship, and each other carefully because there is a problem. It is not always a bad thing or something that will ruin the relationship, but it is a sign that there is some kind of change going on. Usually it is, as other posters have said, as shift inside of me. Sometimes it is a twist in the dynamic. On occasion it has been my partner that has had things going on that have lead to some sort of confusion or lack of ease on my part. To me, it is not the rebellion itself that must be punished. It is possible, however, for the consequences of that rebellion to need punishment. Whether it is closure for the emotional fallout for either partner or because there has been actual damage done to the relationship, it becomes important for there to be an reckoning in some cases. I don't think that rebellion necessarily warrants punishment, but I think it can help in the overall process of rebellion and reconciliation. lovingpet Thank you lovingpet for replying I would like to ask your view on the following please. To correct the rebellious act, would it be as productive or maybe more to use other methods? One example I could present is to give more structure if the s-type needs it to function better, or to give more space time, if they need that. My way of thinking in some instances of rebellion, the s-type might just need help to understand what is going on within them, instead of a direct punishment for the action. My reasoning behind this is, if the rebellion isn't a product of testing the Dom. but something else, then maybe the s-type needs more directional control verses the punishment route. I hope I explained that well.

wisdomtogive -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 6:42:07 AM)
Thank you ownedbyPf for bringing in another perspective to this. This too I have heard from others pushing to see where the walls really are. For many it seems to bring a safety net. Thank you again:)

afterforever -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 6:50:48 AM)
I must be some kind of freak, because I don't think I've ever had any internal issues with my submission, let alone displayed it as outward rebellion. Maybe that's just lack of experience, or maybe I've just been lucky and supercompatible with my previous relationships. I think it totally depends on the reason for the rebellion whether a slave deserves punishment or not, like most people I think communication should come before punishment, and if xhe is having temporary internal struggles about a new situation then I don't think punishment is necessarily the best option.

ranja -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 7:11:38 AM)
When i forget my place and become unbecomingly uppity or god forbid even disrespectful to Him, short sharp punishment sorts me out just fine, a painful pinch or hard slap on my behind... even a curt slightly humiliating comment will do the trick For total rebellion however punishment would not work... for me to rebel means that He is totally wrong... for Him to then implement punishment would have the averse effect and totally prove to me that He has lost the plot. Mistakes can always be made in assessing a situation and decide what is needed to resolve it though... If matters are serious; time to think and then address the issue as adults is always preferable i think. The other day we had a strange misunderstanding about some video tapes that had to go back... i had done something wrong, forgot one, but i was totally unaware of my mistake... and when i realised it, i thought it was a stupid mistake but i did not feel guilty at all really. He was too serious about the matter and did not cut me any slack... then He clipped me around the ear... harder than He had intended... i developed a bit of a headache... my sense of humour about the entire thing had dissolved and i was totally pissed off with Him... He was still being rotten about things when we started eating so i threw a fish at Him... He threw it back rather fumingly. Then He ordered me to get up and stand still.... which i did, a bit scared like, and then He gave me a cuddle and said sorry for the clipped ear. I offered to take the video back, but He ended up going while i cleaned up the fish.

RavenMuse -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 7:17:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: afterforever I must be some kind of freak, because I don't think I've ever had any internal issues with my submission, let alone displayed it as outward rebellion. Maybe that's just lack of experience, or maybe I've just been lucky and supercompatible with my previous relationships. I think it totally depends on the reason for the rebellion whether a slave deserves punishment or not, like most people I think communication should come before punishment, and if xhe is having temporary internal struggles about a new situation then I don't think punishment is necessarily the best option. Bingo.... My girl doesn't get to the 'rebelion' stage either because if she is having a problem..... she brings it to Me before it ever gets to that point. We communicate, the issue is gone into understand and dealt with... either Me helping her push through it, get around it, or if I don't think it is important, simply removed from the equation entirely. But then I don't run a punishment dynamic, Discipline is more important and that's done primarily through communication.

wisdomtogive -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 7:50:52 AM)
I am really learning a lot from Raven Shadowborne, Hawkwindblues. Sir had highly recommended her work, and has me studying it.

wisdomtogive -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 7:55:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: afterforever I must be some kind of freak, because I don't think I've ever had any internal issues with my submission, let alone displayed it as outward rebellion. Maybe that's just lack of experience, or maybe I've just been lucky and supercompatible with my previous relationships. I think it totally depends on the reason for the rebellion whether a slave deserves punishment or not, like most people I think communication should come before punishment, and if xhe is having temporary internal struggles about a new situation then I don't think punishment is necessarily the best option. I don't think you are the freak, most likely it is me. I tend to intermalize many things all my life. It is how I am wire. Sir is working on me to be able to control this internalizing.

wisdomtogive -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 8:00:57 AM)
kana, Thank you I do agree with a lot of what you said. The journaling for me is a major help.

NihilusZero -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 12:24:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive NihilusZero, thank you for replying. I do have a question that perhaps you might consider answering. If after a time table has been set up, and you could see remarkable improvement within you s-type, what would you do if she needed a little bit more time to balance herself out? Would you continue with your D/s / M/s dynamic with her or release her. Thank you for considering answering. wisdomtogive I think it's hard to find a universal answer here, but my main concern would be if her motivation and genuine desire was to work towards a more harmonious result. If I were to say that I'd consider a parting of ways afterwards to still be a possibility even if I knew she was trying her hardest, it would not be out of anger or resentment or disappointment at all actually, but I would be genuinely concerned that if she is fighting so hard to change something natural to her that it may not be a continually fulfilling relationship even if we both have the best intentions. I wouldn't want to keep her in a situation in which I'd fear she would continually feel she is letting me and herself down when, in reality, it's just a question of compatibility. I think those types of results are the hardest to deal with because, after a time, both partners have put investment in the relationship and care about each other and want it to work out...but maybe they just aren't ideally matched for that. It's hard to try and take a step back in those situations to see what the best path forward for everyone is, especially if one or both parties think coming to that realization is some sort of cop-out or just an intentional manipulation to break up. It's a fine tightrope walk for me between being supportive and putting in the effort and patience to make something work and with honestly assessing whether the relationship is going to be fulfilling to all parties or not.

wisdomtogive -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 1:23:22 PM)
Thank you NihilusZero for responding to my question. The timing factor threw me a bit, hence why I asked. Through my own dealings with many people, I have come to realize that they can work through an issue with structure and discipline, yet in some cases the issue is layered in degrees and it takes time to find what really is the core problem. This person could have felt they had worked through this problem, showing great results, only to find this issue resurfacing again in a couple years. Usually when this does happen, I have noticed that a new layer has open to reveal a deeper core to their conflict. In these cases, timing to me seems irrelevant, providing the s-type has made great stride with what knowledge prevailed them at that time. If this type of example would resurface with an inner rebellion, would the situation be viewed in a different light, or warrant a dismissal. I am sure this can be seen as a hypothetical question, yet I have seen this happen in others, so it brought this question forward. I do realize this is addressing a deeper level of my original question. I personally do not feel a Dom should try to fit into the role of a counselor, psychologist either, yet understanding that changes sometimes can come in layers verses steady progress might be helpful. These issues do not need to circle around the s-type's ability or belief that they are submissive either, nor their desire to give the degree of submission they wish to a Dom. It can also stem from other areas in their outer life. Thank you again for your input. Please do know that I am not projecting what I think you would or won't do, just the timing drew me to ask more questions. wisdomtogeive

NihilusZero -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 2:53:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive Thank you again for your input. Please do know that I am not projecting what I think you would or won't do, just the timing drew me to ask more questions. wisdomtogeive No worries needed! Questions are good things. [:)]

CaringandReal -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 3:27:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive Submissives/slaves if you ever had a period of rebellion how did your Dom deal with it? Was the way they had chosen productive in your own personal healing? If so why and if not why? Yes I did and they were dealt with with communication. That did not work particularly well for me in those circumstances. Rebellion can be caused by a lot of things. When the causal factors are internal and not external, sometimes doing anything except punish (and that includes communication) will exacerbate the bad behavior and the emotions behind the behavior, not fix or reduce them. The causal factors for me were internal. Nothing external that happened in the relationship caused me to rebel. So I tend to prefer punishment, even if it's unfair or inappropriate at times. It reassures me intensely and so strengthens the power exchange--and it works. Not being punished when I clearly deserve it leaves me lost and wondering if I am controlled at all. So I tend to look for others who are capable of, willing to, and even enjoy dishing it out. From reading profiles, it's clear to me that some other submissives do this, too., although they are not a majority You see hints in profiles like, "I seek a harsh master." People don't always write that phrase because they're looking for titilation or are engrossed in a fantasy. Sometimes they know themselves and know what they need to feel secure and happy in a bdsm relationship.

wisdomtogive -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 3:59:41 PM)
Thank you CaringandReal for your input. Though for me punishment would put me in a headspin, I do appreciate how others would find it to be what they need. For me it is the tone of voice, Sir uses that catches my attention faster then anything, and lets me breath again. Through that action, I can then focus and give voice to what is going on within me. Again, thank you for sharing, wisdomtogive

CreativeDominant -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 4:15:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive Upon reading an article on rebellion by Raven Shadowborne on the internet, I started to ponder the concept of punishment in this catagory. I do have to agree with her point of view that many submissives/slaves do not rebell without an underlining cause. She suggested to find that cause and communicate about it, verses the proverbial punishment. Sir seems to follow her theory as well. Though I am basically not a brat, there has been a rebellion going on within me, since I moved here almost 2 months ago. He already knew there would be a period for Us to adjust to each other, plus my own adjusting to living as a M/s couple 24/7. He also realized that almost 5 years without me having a committed relationship, let a-lone, live-in one, would intensify my personal struggle in being owned. Throughout all this, he has never felt the need to punish me when I show signs of rebellion. He knows that I am going through my own personal duel inside. This is working for us, and has aided me in trusting him more and more as the days go by. Through this, the dueling 'wisdoms' have settled down a lot. One factor always prevails in my mind through his direction, He is in charge. He owns me. His methods have earned my respect for Him as my Dom and owner. Though it has proven to be a better direction for us' communication verses punishment, I know it might not be for others. I do wonder how others view punishment for rebellion. I am basically referring to the referrence I made about Raven Shadowborne's view that a lot of rebellion can actually stem from problems the submissive is having via the outside world, or her/his own inner turmoil. Doms. do you punish for rebellion [general or specific type]? If so why? If you do not punish for this why? Tis a difficult question to answer. A lot depends on the submissive involved and what they feel they need to move away from rebellion and what the dominant feels is needed for the submissive to move away from rebellion. Some submissives' form of rebellion is a complete break from the dominant and the D/s dynamic without any communication taking place or any chance for the dominant to deal with the rebellion and what might be at the heart of it. How does a dominant deal with that? Some rush out and find a brand new submissive. That is not my way...I continue to deal with the submissive in some form unless they refuse to in the hope of getting the communication going that should have taken place in the first place, both in terms of finding out where the submissive's head is at and where my own is in my faults and successes in the dynamic. Some submissives' rebellion is expressed through being a brat. I don't do brats well and this would be a time where communication either takes place or the submissive (or I) would be gone. Some submissives' rebellion is, as in your case, a fight against unused-to structure and rules. That can be difficult to deal with, especially when you are coming from a "single" stance of a length of time that has made you independant and used to doing things your own way. To my mind, the best way of handling this rebellion is a combination of the way your dominant appears to be handling it (the greatest part, at least for awhile) and firmness that is not afraid to discipline when things get too out of hand and a mutual understanding that communication must be OPEN and often, along with an agreement that it (the rebellion) will be expected to subside at a certain point in time. Some dominants' way of dealing with rebellion is simply telling the submissive to "stop it" or "get over it" without hearing one word the submissive has said or very little of what has been conveyed. Sorry...as good as they may sound sometimes, as "domly" as it may sound, in real life I've rarely seen it work. Hell, with some submissives, it does not matter what words you lay out, they are going to see them as a way of "putting them in their place" at the wrong point in time---even if it is the RIGHT point in time---now, take their rebellion which may be coming from some heavy struggle within and reduce it to something as simplistically solved as "get over it...now" and you may not have to worry about a submissive at all (in MY opinion). quote: Thank you everyone ahead of time for posting your thoughts. wisdomtogive

lovingpet -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 8:09:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet Rebellion is a marker that tells us to evaluate ourselves, our relationship, and each other carefully because there is a problem. It is not always a bad thing or something that will ruin the relationship, but it is a sign that there is some kind of change going on. Usually it is, as other posters have said, as shift inside of me. Sometimes it is a twist in the dynamic. On occasion it has been my partner that has had things going on that have lead to some sort of confusion or lack of ease on my part. To me, it is not the rebellion itself that must be punished. It is possible, however, for the consequences of that rebellion to need punishment. Whether it is closure for the emotional fallout for either partner or because there has been actual damage done to the relationship, it becomes important for there to be an reckoning in some cases. I don't think that rebellion necessarily warrants punishment, but I think it can help in the overall process of rebellion and reconciliation. lovingpet Thank you lovingpet for replying I would like to ask your view on the following please. To correct the rebellious act, would it be as productive or maybe more to use other methods? One example I could present is to give more structure if the s-type needs it to function better, or to give more space time, if they need that. My way of thinking in some instances of rebellion, the s-type might just need help to understand what is going on within them, instead of a direct punishment for the action. My reasoning behind this is, if the rebellion isn't a product of testing the Dom. but something else, then maybe the s-type needs more directional control verses the punishment route. I hope I explained that well. I think these are two different things. To me, what you are describing is part of correcting a problem. If the submissive is stifled to death and it gets her panicky and, therefore fighting the dominant, then the dominant may want to lighten a bit and slow down the pace. If the submissive is having trouble keeping to standards in a certain area, more attention and control might be needed for a time to achieve the goal. Those things are not punishment really. They are just making adjustments in the relationship dynamic as may be necessary upon that examination I talked about. Punishment could take several different forms, but in all it is about things like guilt, absolution, closure, and even dealing with frustration. It is meant to both deter future poor choices and instill positive ones. It is also important to remember that punishment should help both parties in moving on and doing better. For one indescretion awhile back I received two punishments. One was that I had to write down everything I ate and drank, how much exercise I did, when and how much sleep I got, when and how much of my meds I took, and three measures of my "energy" throughout the day. I had to turn this in to him for about a month. This was to help me to see when I wasn't taking good care of myself. When I saw him, he choked me until I nearly passed out telling me that that's how it was going to feel if I got that sick again and wound up with a collapsed lung. He let go snuggled me up and we moved on. He vented his frustration and voiced his concern and also received the information he needed to guide me better in that area of my life. I got the eye opener of how little I was eat and how often I was neglecting my medications and also that I always pushed myself too hard. It has changed the way I conduct myself. I would call this effective punishment. This wasn't a rebellion thing so much as a lack of awareness, but it still applies. When I said punishment may deal with consequences more than the rebellion itself, I mean that the submissive may need to be held accountable for damaging the dominant's trust and/or getting either of them in some kind of harm (legal maybe or illness/injury due to the actions that occurred). It may also be that the submissive has created a communication gap too. There is a lot of fallout from a rebellion. The actions may make sense once the problem is clear and it is resolved, but these consequences remain and can't be undone so easily sometimes. It is like the lecture on lying that some got as kids. "You lied to me. What is worse it that now I can't trust you anymore. We got to the truth, but my trust is going to be a lot harder to fix." Punishment can be a first step along this path. I hope this response makes sense. I have been a little too busy all day long and am ready for bed when the time comes. [:)] lovingpet

marie2 -> RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? (3/18/2010 8:21:54 PM)
GR If I'm seeing my dom as reasonable, level-headed, forthright, and caring, rebellion never comes into the picture, even if there's an issue that I'm not happy about. When I'm feeling or acting rebellious in a relationship I've learned that that's my body telling me to get the fuck out because something ain't right. So, in my case, there'd never even be an opportunity to "punish", because if it's reached the point of rebellion, I've already checked out.

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