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Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/17/2010 10:56:22 PM   
MasterJackal


Posts: 12
Joined: 3/15/2010
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Talked to a girl who told me about two different cases of stalking . One was a Master she played with showing up at her work. That one I don't know  I've shown up at the work of slaves I played with but I made sure it was okay first and it was to take them out to lunch  So, she could be uptight or maybe it was stalking.

The other one was a submissive who messaged her Dom too many times in one day. That made her a stalker, and he cut her out of his life. It's my understanding that they were supposed to be in a serious, committed relationship and he disappeared on her without explaining where or why then accused her of being a stalker for worrying and sending him messages in the only medium she could afford at the time.

Now, what mom told me when I said a girl was stalking me is that the main difference between "stalking" and "romance" in all but the most dangerous cases is if the other person wants the attention. Which is sometimes hard to tell. Plus you get the "no no" women who mean "yes yes"  and the ones who say "yes yes" but mean "no no" .

To me, in the case of the girl messaging, if it was me  I would have given her ground rules to start with  If she didnt' follow them I'd have turned off my pager (duh!) and punished her for it later. Or, given her a warning and clear orders and called it stalking if she wouldn't stop after that.

I keep going over it in my head, though - how does a person that you are in a consensual relationship with stalk you?  It  would be hard to Dom if you never insisted on your own way, wouldn't it?

Edit: Forgot the most important part, that does my head in  The Dom who claims she is stalking him says he likes to get into a slave's head and make her crave and beg for more.

So, shouldn't he have felt accomplished, not stalked?


< Message edited by MasterJackal -- 3/17/2010 11:03:18 PM >
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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/17/2010 11:04:46 PM   
Smutmonger


Posts: 995
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		Two reasons from my past. I never stalk-I piss off if someone isn't interested. Both were ex "subs" of mine. One was jealous of a new girl and wanted to get even.

The second was nuerotic to begin with,and she decided to try to pester me online after I got tired of her drama. It's stalking when they refuse to take no for an answer-and get obsessive about control or attention.

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/17/2010 11:05:14 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

how does a person that you are in a consensual relationship with stalk you?


By repeatedly showing up uninvited when the other person has asked them not to. Or by calling/texting/emailing/whatevering the other person an excessive amount in a short time span.

IMO it's not 'stalking' until the person being 'stalked' has asked the 'stalker' to stop. It might be misguided but it's not stalking.

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/17/2010 11:08:21 PM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		Smut, quit tellin' people that I do that.

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/18/2010 12:46:01 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline 		 
This ain't rocket science, and has ZILCH to do with D/s...

Dating = Welcomed

Stalking = Unwelcomed








< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 3/18/2010 12:47:03 AM >

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/18/2010 2:01:31 AM   
alhamdullilah


Posts: 81
Joined: 2/18/2010
Status: offline 		Okay... Nowww it's stalking!! *chases the thread*

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/18/2010 5:19:36 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		He was already cheating on her and wanted to move on without being the bad guy so he called her a stalker and then put her on ignore. That's him being an asshat not her being a stalker.

And if someone I was not in a relationship with, just had casual sex with showed up anywhere without asking me first, I would be pissed. If we haven't arranged a date, you don't have the right to invade my space.  One time makes him a clueless fuckwad, doing it repeatedly after being told not to makes him a stalker.


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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/18/2010 7:06:52 AM   
MasterJackal


Posts: 12
Joined: 3/15/2010
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

He was already cheating on her and wanted to move on without being the bad guy so he called her a stalker and then put her on ignore. That's him being an asshat not her being a stalker.

And if someone I was not in a relationship with, just had casual sex with showed up anywhere without asking me first, I would be pissed. If we haven't arranged a date, you don't have the right to invade my space.  One time makes him a clueless fuckwad, doing it repeatedly after being told not to makes him a stalker.



Thanks! I think you really get where my head was with this. Didn't hit every point but you hit most of them.

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/18/2010 7:18:35 AM   
MasterJackal


Posts: 12
Joined: 3/15/2010
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA


This ain't rocket science, and has ZILCH to do with D/s...

Dating = Welcomed

Stalking = Unwelcomed









It has everything to do with D/s  dynamics and that's why I asked. If you are in a position where you are giving or have been given orders, owning or being owned, there is a point of departure from SSC to nutter.  The discussion is when/where is that point.

That "welcome", "unwelcome" thing only goes so far. If you have a Master and your Master tells you to do something you do not want, he is just doing what you signed up for.  So, seems to me that unless you make it clear that that the relationship itself is unwelcome, by formally breaking it off, his requests or showing up do not constitute stalking, even if you don't like them. He's supposed to be pushing your boundaries. That's what we do!

With slaves, it's even more so. You give them orders, they follow the orders. If you want them to stop, what do you do? Run to the police, whining that they are no longer welcome in your life? No. You put them in their place, you tell them what to do.  Then, if they won't listen, I guess there are probs. But, how can you say a slave is stalking you by following your orders or a Master is staking you by doing exactly what is agreed on, because you changed your mind and didn't inform them?

That's what I keep coming back to. I don't know. I think there has to be some protocol, something like a safe word. Maybe it's down to discussing all those boundaries before any play. SSC has to be a two way street, and if the other person is going to yell "Stalker!" when it's time to move on to their next victim, it's you in danger, not them!

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/18/2010 10:19:47 AM   
DarlingSavage


Posts: 2808
Joined: 9/18/2009
Status: offline 		When people run around saying that they are "being stalked", what they're really trying to do is say that they have some mysterious control over people that makes them lose their self control when it comes to the "stalked". I knew a guy once that went around saying every single girl he knew was "stalking" him. What an ass!

I've also "known" girls online that pull the same shit. I had no idea that 'stalkers" were so prevalent in our society.
[mod edit- video removed]

Spock, the Stalker

< Message edited by Ranger3 -- 3/27/2010 12:19:43 AM >

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/18/2010 10:43:18 AM   
erinroe


Posts: 12
Joined: 1/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

That's him being an asshat not her being a stalker.


lol   lol  You have no idea how good this sentence makes me feel!

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/18/2010 10:46:33 AM   
erinroe


Posts: 12
Joined: 1/12/2010
Status: offline 		I agree with DarlingSavage (plus dig the ID)   Most of what people call stalking is about them being too selfish/lazy to bother telling the other person what they want or too cowardly to deal with it like an adult when it's over.

For the record, when I messaged a guy "too much" I asked him if it was too much and he said no, he told me he wanted it. Then his circumstances changed and he didn't want it. Maybe because he was dating someone else on the side, maybe not. Whatever the case, this "Dom" never bothered to tell me what was going on, much less give me any orders or guidelines as to how he wanted things done. 

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/18/2010 10:49:49 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		OMG Darling and your pics :P

lmao,

how do i add a stalking pic????

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/18/2010 10:54:43 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJackal

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA


This ain't rocket science, and has ZILCH to do with D/s...

Dating = Welcomed

Stalking = Unwelcomed









It has everything to do with D/s  dynamics...



Ummm... no, it doesn't.

quote:

 

The discussion is when/where is that point.



Yeah, and the ANSWER is still... <drum roll>... when it becomes "UNWELCOMED".

The problem with certain Toppy types (or "nutters" to quote you) is they can't seem to wrap their tiny, little brain around the difference between FANTASY and REALITY; and the simple fact that words like "owned" and so forth are little more than the BDSM equivalent of the Vanilla termed "relationship".  There are no REAL "Masters" and "slaves" because SLAVERY IS ILLEGAL.  Thus, any slave can leave when they want to... <I'm going to state this again>... ANY SLAVE CAN LEAVE WHEN THEY WANT TO.  And so, the SAME applies to BDSM-Land as it does to Vanilla-Land... the "point" is when the action(s) become "UNWELCOMED";  and all the pseudo-Toppy black leather, dark sunglasses, tough-talk, and goofy self-ascribed Toppy-titles ain't ever gonna change that. Period.  Additionally, if someone doesn't want you around for ANY reason, then THE FAILURE IS YOURS, not theirs.



< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 3/18/2010 11:18:07 AM >

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/18/2010 11:02:38 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

It has everything to do with D/s dynamics and that's why I asked.


Not really....

quote:

If you are in a position where you are giving or have been given orders, owning or being owned, there is a point of departure from SSC to nutter.  The discussion is when/where is that point.


What we do does not give people the right to invade someone's space after being told explicitly not to do so, if there has been no implicit request from one individual to another that their attention is unwanted, then there can be no real accusation of stalking...

In California, which was the first state to pass such laws, all I have to do is tell someone to leave me alone, and if they ignore the request I could have them served with a restraining order. If they ignore the restraining order they can be charged with stalking.. pretty simple.

quote:

That "welcome", "unwelcome" thing only goes so far. If you have a Master and your Master tells you to do something you do not want, he is just doing what you signed up for.  So, seems to me that unless you make it clear that that the relationship itself is unwelcome, by formally breaking it off, his requests or showing up do not constitute stalking, even if you don't like them. He's supposed to be pushing your boundaries. That's what we do!

There is no law that compels obedience, if someone does not want to engage in a consensual relationship with another and the other person doesn't get a clue, they are stalking.. Ds has nothing to do with it

quote:

With slaves, it's even more so. You give them orders, they follow the orders. If you want them to stop, what do you do? Run to the police, whining that they are no longer welcome in your life? No. You put them in their place, you tell them what to do.  Then, if they won't listen, I guess there are probs. But, how can you say a slave is stalking you by following your orders or a Master is staking you by doing exactly what is agreed on, because you changed your mind and didn't inform them?


Shit changes, if you no longer want a slave around, tell them, if they do not want to listen, file a police report... if this is outside of your personal rules, fine... but M/s does not give a slave the right to stalk someone....

This isn't rocket science... D/s and M/s do not change the rule of law... we have no legally enforceable "slave" contracts... and you will not get many people to agree on what the rules are for having these relationships... follow some common sense... follow the law... it seems a pretty straightforward one.







< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/18/2010 11:03:09 AM >

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/18/2010 11:16:47 AM   
DarlingSavage


Posts: 2808
Joined: 9/18/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

OMG Darling and your pics :P

lmao,

how do i add a stalking pic????


cmail me

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Strangers have the BEST candy!

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/18/2010 11:32:47 AM   
zenny


Posts: 275
Joined: 2/13/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJackal

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA


This ain't rocket science, and has ZILCH to do with D/s...

Dating = Welcomed

Stalking = Unwelcomed









It has everything to do with D/s  dynamics...



Ummm... no, it doesn't.

quote:

 

The discussion is when/where is that point.



Yeah, and the ANSWER is still... <drum roll>... when it becomes "UNWELCOMED".

The problem with certain Toppy types (or "nutters" to quote you) is they can't seem to wrap their tiny, little brain around the difference between FANTASY and REALITY; and the simple fact that words like "owned" and so forth are little more than the BDSM equivalent of the Vanilla termed "relationship".  There are no REAL "Masters" and "slaves" because SLAVERY IS ILLEGAL.  Thus, any slave can leave when they want to... <I'm going to state this again>... ANY SLAVE CAN LEAVE WHEN THEY WANT TO.  And so, the SAME applies to BDSM-Land as it does to Vanilla-Land... the "point" is when the action(s) become "UNWELCOMED";  and all the pseudo-Toppy black leather, dark sunglasses, tough-talk, and goofy self-ascribed Toppy-titles ain't ever gonna change that. Period.  Additionally, if someone doesn't want you around for ANY reason, then THE FAILURE IS YOURS, not theirs.




Indeed and in reality the legality of something has little to do with whether or not it happens. Also, it seems you are dismissing Jackal offhand and not attempting to understand the interplay of the scenario's he outlines. Furthermore a D/s dynamic, if understood that it does not stop at the bedroom door, can very easily culminate in such situations and them to be reality as opposed to a fantasy gone awry.

Regardless of this I think we all agree that should something change the person should have the decency to notify the other of it.

Jackal, the short of it is that you don't know enough information to come to a conclusion in either case. There are good probabilities but it's not enough.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

When people run around saying that they are "being stalked", what they're really trying to do is say that they have some mysterious control over people that makes them lose their self control when it comes to the "stalked". I knew a guy once that went around saying every single girl he knew was "stalking" him. What an ass!

I've also "known" girls online that pull the same shit. I had no idea that 'stalkers" were so prevalent in our society.
[mod edit- video removed]

Spock, the Stalker


Indeed. Also there is a move in the school age population to start calling people "creepers" as opposed to stalkers.

< Message edited by Ranger3 -- 3/27/2010 12:20:30 AM >

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/18/2010 11:38:18 AM   
willowspirit


Posts: 164
Joined: 6/20/2005
From: U.S.A.-Minnesota
Status: offline 		A better title for this thread could have been "Where Does Donimation end and Stalking begin?"
I've had men look up my location using the expanded header codes in my off-site emails. (one reason I stay on this site until I feel safe enough to trust them with my bona fide email address.) This one so-called Dominant drove south over 100 miles to find me -- Nothing but a casual emailing/conversation type of "relationship", no commitments, no play-time, uninvited, no emergency... nothing other than he felt like it.

Another time -- Non-stop phone calls, all hours of the day and night. Again with someone I had never even met.

That Dominant ... his submissive texting to many times in ONE day? And just disappearing on her. Geesh! Can we say "Passive Agressive" or what? He needed to grow some balls and set up rules with consequences. And tell a person when the relationship no longer works.

As for the question: "It would be hard to Dom if you never insisted on Your own way..."
In my mind a Domiant should know better than to jeapordize His submissive's vanilla life... her job, her costody with her children, relationships with her extended family, etc.
"His own way" has to be reasonable (also an aspect of SSC), or it's time to end it.

However -- as a submissive woman, I tend to get uncomfortable if I feel I have to "chase" anyone down to get a little attention. "Possessiveness" in a submissive isn't loyalty. It looks needy and controlling. I always thought of it as highly unflattering. Like "topping from the bottom". It just feels creepy.

Anyway, just my humble opinion.

---------------------------------------

excuse me, gee, well then, i'm sorry, okay... i'll go crawl under my rock now.

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/18/2010 11:45:50 AM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		Stalking someone includes malicious intent. If you are simply following someone around, arranglng your life to be where they are is possibly asking to get spurned. It might be silly, obsessive at times but as long as you are not trying to hurt the person, harm them or any one around them then no big deal.

~Alex Forrest

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RE: Where does submission end and stalking begin? - 3/18/2010 11:57:22 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

...it seems you are dismissing Jackal offhand and not attempting to understand the interplay of the scenario's he outlines.



No, I haven't... here are the "scenarios" put forth:
  • One was a Master she played with showing up at her work.
  • The other one was a submissive who messaged her Dom too many times in one day.


Thus, my answer remains the same... the "point" (be it a D/s, M/s, or 'nilla dynamic) is where the action(s) become UNWELCOMED.



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