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RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 6:31:45 AM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

When does following a order or does following an order excuse one from taking responsibilitty for their actions?

It never does..... just talk to the jailers who were at Abu Gharib. I would tell you for myself.....even if it was war time scenario, I'd say ''no'' in heartbeat if my gut told me I was being led down a stray path.

- R

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to aurora31)

Post #: 21

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 6:41:04 AM

MHOO314

Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
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I find this feeling often in new submissives, or those wanting to embrace their submissiveness but are fearful of letting go--I call it the "yes, but' syndrome---

Master: I want you to do xxx

Submissive: Yes Master, but..

Any Master/Mistress worth their weight in gold, is not going to ask you to do things illegal or violently immoral and there should have been negotiations undertaken and limits agreed upon. IMHO when those limits are violated with no new negotiations--all bets are off--however, as Raven said, we as a society are conditioned to certain ways of behavior and certain sexual beliefs that are baseless---Master may want to move you past those to allow the two of you more freedom or more fulfillment--

So I would question the "yes,but..."---is it something beyond your limits? Is it something you find morally unacceptable? Or is it the fact that you don't like being told what to do? As always communication is the key.

< Message edited by MHOO314 -- 4/2/2006 6:42:16 AM >

_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

Mistress Hathor

(in reply to aurora31)

Post #: 22

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 7:10:38 AM

ScooterTrash

Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

Any Master/Mistress worth their weight in gold, is not going to ask you to do things illegal or violently immoral and there should have been negotiations undertaken and limits agreed upon.

I think this sums it up well. Assuming the "fit" is good enough that their is a Slave/Owner relationship in the first place, it's unlikely this issue would ever come up, at least the legality of someone's actions. I might push someone past their morals, within the structure of their (our) hard limits, but would never, ever, put someone in legal jeapardy, that irresponsible on the owners part.

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to MHOO314)

Post #: 23

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 8:46:32 AM

ExistentialSteel

Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
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Ranger, that is a good point. Like, I’ve said more than a few times, I was in the military where rules and laws become cloudy. The first time I saw the prisoners wearing hoods as they got off the planes in Guantanemo, I knew we were asking for trouble. That attitude of handling prisoners inhumanely filtered down to the guards at Abu Garib.

As far as the argument of qualifying breaking laws because some laws don’t land you in jail. Breaking almost any law will make you end up in jail if you refuse to pay a fine or whatever. If you take the position that you will never break the law, there are a myriad of examples that would affect you in a detrimental way. What if you were in the mountains, lost and came upon a deserted cabin? Would you break in? What if you were starving? Would you steal food? Would you drive very fast to get someone having a heart attack to a hospital? Law breaking is relative. Personal ethics is a better barometer of right and wrong, in my opinion.

< Message edited by ExistentialSteel -- 4/2/2006 9:16:40 AM >

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 24

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 8:56:53 AM

namasteguardian

Posts: 20
Joined: 6/29/2005
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aurora, I don't think you are really asking about who should take responsibility. your question seems to be really about your personal taboos. you obviously understand that no Master has the right to make you do anything that breaks the law, or that causes you bodily injury.

In essence, your personal taboos should be considered your hard limits, a place the Master will never go. As many others have said, communication is the key; you and your Master should have talked about this at the very beginning of your relationship to establish the parameters. No proper Master will ever push his slave past her hard limits, unless you both agree otherwise. Very often, over time limits change, even hard limits as trust is built between Master and slave. Other limits may always be off bounds to your way of thinking. Where responsibility enters the equation is that it is your responsibility to make this line clear, and the Master's responsibility to never violate that line.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

"Life wasn't meant to be easy, but it was meant to be fun!"

(in reply to ScooterTrash)

Post #: 25

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 9:52:54 AM

foxnotinsox

Posts: 84
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: eastern Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aurora31
When does following a order or does following an order excuse one from taking responsibility for their actions? <snip> But what if I was ordered to do something I considered taboo or gross? I hear many sub/slaves state that they do not feel bad or guilty about doing such things becuase they were obeying orders...they put the responsibility for their actions on the Dom/Master. I have a hard time grasping this concept.

Yes, it is a hard concept to grasp .. for responsibility is not a black/white, hesaid/shesaid blame game either ... rather a fluid concept which shifts as our lines in the sands are shifted.

That's where talking about limits is important .. if you think it gross or taboo, then it is your responsibility to let your partner know. If he knows, then it is his responsibility to find out if it is a soft or hard limit .. if soft, then he can push =] ever so gently.. if hard, then he can't. When I submit to my Partner, he should be aware of what he can do, what play he can direct .. as I should be aware of what I allow him to do, for there can be a point in play where I am primal, simply responding to what he chooses to do .. which can be quite hot and yummy ….

I digress pardon .. Personally, I have had my limits pushed, sometimes surpassed, and a few times even breached. In each, both of us are responsible yet in different ways. For pushing, my partner is responsible for reading me as he is testing me, while I am responsible for somehow communicating to him when I am having difficulty [and believe you me heheh there are plenty of signs]. The edge can shift as I accommodate to the stimulus(i) he is providing .. or it can retreat if I sense that he is not taking his responsibility for me seriously. Depending on how he responds to my response, play can continue.

When limits are surpassed, I am responsible for calling a slow-down or stop, just as he is responsible for dealing with me and the circumstances leading up to the call. If I am reassured and confident that my concerns were listened to, then perhaps play may continue.

If however limits are breached, then this can be viewed irresponsibility on both parts. First, on the top for initiating and then on the bottom for bad judgement. [Need I say that play would probably not continue?] Yet again, there are limiting factors. One which was brought up was brainwashing in the military .. or at times of war. For here, one is wrestling with ingrained values versus the possibility of insubordination. When your superior tells to to go over that hill .. and you don’t want to?? Hmmm I’d bet you’d get a cuff up the back of the head and yer ass kicked heheh … yes, a kind of brainwashing, as believe it or not, guns are meant to kill beings .. and in the case of war, human beings. If you have something against killing, then maybe the military is not the career for you.

OK .. another example … does anybody here remember Patty Hurst?? Heheh or am I just dating myself … here was an affluent girl kidnapped, and then shows up robbing a bank, assisting to help finance the organization that took her in the first place. Then finally, there is the example of somebody ordering a subordinate (here I use the term loosely .. could be employer/employee, Master/slave, husband/hitman) to commit an action on a third. Does that make the first completely absolved of responsibility? Ummmm no ..

Yes, we are ultimately responsible for ourselves, yet no man is an island unto himself nor can any one action be viewed as a simple point in space and time. Our decisions are tempered by other factors .. our upbringing, socio-economic status, romantic involvement, etc. The mindset of a D/s relationship can too come into play, depending on how much control is given to the top by the bottom. A desire to please, sometimes to the point of no matter what (hmmm I think a dangerous place to be), can override one’s conception of right and wrong and lead to bad judgements ..

Then again, there are times when what I think is gross or taboo ends up being hot and yummmmmy =] … for instance, I at one time never wanted piercings cause just the thought of them made my skin crawl .. yet as one relationship progressed, I allowed a piercing (vertical hood) which I simply loved! Hmmmm and perhaps might consider again.

So anyways .. the upshot of this is that responsibility is not a simple matter when it comes to complicated issues that change as one changes. If it doesn’t feel right, then it probably isn’t .. if it feels good, then it probably is, though there is always a risk in anything we do .. even crossing the street. The thing is to weigh risks/rights/responsibilities and do what you believe is best .. hmm provided of course that the intent is not to harm [but that's just one of my own values .. you may or may not share heheh though I wouldn't allow control *over* me if this was not shared]

Play hard, play saafe,
oxox,foX
Veni vidi veni

< Message edited by foxnotinsox -- 4/2/2006 9:57:55 AM >

(in reply to aurora31)

Post #: 26

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 10:01:17 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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For those who said either, a dominant should never ask you to do something illegal or that if asked they would walk, would you/do you ask your dominant to do something illegal? Do you participate in SM and was a criteria for a partner someone who participated in SM activities?

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to foxnotinsox)

Post #: 27

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 10:39:04 AM

aurora31

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Joined: 8/18/2005
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Thank you all for the great answers so far. I am not at all worried about being asked to do something illeagal to commit a crime or to be asked to do something that would cause me great bodily injury. First off I would never agree to serve one who would ask such things...second off if for some reason I did end being asked I would walk away. But that was not really my point of this post.

I really have been so very lucky in those I have met in my search ( for those who don't know me I am not owned at this point). I have made some great friends and acquantances many of which who have given me tons of great adavice. As a few have had the forsight to see in my OP I am very much struggeling with "good girl/bad girl" type issues. It is so engrained in my mind that "good girls do not do those things" that it can take away from the enjoyment of certain activies. Or while I enjoy them at the time I then then beat myself up for days afterwards. In sevral recent discusions both with Doms and subs statements to the fact have been made that I should not feel guilty or beat myself up as I was following orders at the time therefore I am not responsible for my actions. For me I could not wrap my head around that concept. While yes I have a strong need to serve and obey to be found pleasing in every way possible, I am still responsible for my actions after all I do have the choice to obey or not obey and to suffer the consequences of that decision.

aurora

< Message edited by aurora31 -- 4/2/2006 10:43:11 AM >

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 28

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 10:40:03 AM

slave41couple

Posts: 9
Joined: 12/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wytchywoman

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

Absolutes simplify to a point of inaccuracy. Would I ever tell a sub to break the law? It depends on the law. Everything is relative. Would I ever tell her to do something that she didn’t feel was right? It depends on what it is. Part of the excitement of D/s is getting a sub to break the rules of society. When I get her in a desirous way and make her say she is a slut, cunt or whatever self-humiliating term I want, she is going against the grain of what is proper in her mind, but finding excitement by doing it. I doubt she would call herself a slut unless I made her.

When I said never would I break "the law" I was not talking about societal mores, I was talking about the kinda crap that could get me arrested, booked, and thrown in jail.

I've never been in that position because my owner is more responsible and more sensible than that, but I do know first hand of a friend who's Domme ordered him to do exactly the kind of thing that could have gotten him arrested, booked, and he would have gone to trial in a U.S court of. law...IF he had obeyed her. Thankfully, he didn't.

This is actually all relative to your environment, some are more prohibitive than others. I used to live in a very conservative city in the midwest and many of the things that we do in this lifestyle are still "on the books". Many of us break the law everyday be it bdsm or vanilla, everyday. I would not wish to be ordered to break most laws no, *wink*.

(in reply to wytchywoman)

Post #: 29

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 11:15:14 AM

Blkmastersgirl

Posts: 25
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Greetings to all. Master has led me past more than one wall I have. I used to think of myself as straight, but he in brought a bisexual sub into play with us and me. He had her start very slowly while telling me to relax. I relaxed and am now bisexual and happy with that. Master know what hes doing and I trust him.

(in reply to slave41couple)

Post #: 30

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 11:40:53 AM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

At the end of the day, I am the one who is responsible for my actions and words. I am also responsible for my inaction or omissions.
DG has required some things that are out of character for me. I ask myself if it is harmful; if the answer is no then I have no choice but to obey. Talking it through before and after is helpful to me. The knowledge that he is proud of my efforts makes all the difference.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to aurora31)

Post #: 31

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 12:03:38 PM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

Ranger, that is a good point. Like, I’ve said more than a few times, I was in the military where rules and laws become cloudy. The first time I saw the prisoners wearing hoods as they got off the planes in Guantanemo, I knew we were asking for trouble. That attitude of handling prisoners inhumanely filtered down to the guards at Abu Garib.

Steel.....

I woulda told you ten years ago that every military order needs to be obeyed, regardless. However, after reading Richard Armitage's Viet Nam memoirs and watching the upper-echelon brass skate out of responsibility for Abu Garib, I'd say just about every order needs to be given a second thought before it is followed. Sad but true.

- R

Edited to add : I don't envy anyone who was assigned to work in either Abu Garib or Gitmo - Both are/were quite a dilemma and would test anyone's sense of being.

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 4/2/2006 12:37:26 PM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 32

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 1:51:40 PM

CERCKL

Posts: 1039
Joined: 3/4/2006
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My personal, youthful seeking led Me deeply into philosophical, theological paths of study...for a long time I held stubbornly to the idealization of the Individual and individualistic responsibility...at this time My persoanl paradigms and constructs have shifted radically but one thing I still hold to is the thought of One's responsibility in choice and action...My sub has the responsibility of her actions when she follows My directions, desires, obeys Me if you will...I don't force her to, culture, society, universal ideals, god doesn't force her or anyone to do anything...she decides. Part of our relationship is her decision to belong to me and to please and obey...every time she does, she chooses to, she is reponsible. If she does something she is uncomfortable with or not...it is her responsibility.
There is no absolution in this life that comes from anywhere but inside your self. Period. Just as I cannot claim My silence or inactivity is abdicated because it was easier...the fideist believed in their concept of god against rational belief and certain skeptics found it easier to follow certain societal laws because it was easier...and people follow because activism can call for sacrifices etc...all are responsible for their choices and decisions.
You make the decision to obey...your choice, your reponsibility. Period. If you decide this allows you to do other things you aren't "comfortable" with and validates your choice to, so be it.

C

_____________________________

AND I AM TOO AN ASSHOLE, I HAVE REFERENCES!!!

"Please, please, please believe me, I really am an asshole. All that Enlightenment and Higher Learning shit was all a ruse."

(in reply to aurora31)

Post #: 33

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 4:22:07 PM

LadiesBladewing

Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
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It is my opinion that we -never- have the luxury of abdicating personal responsibility in order to follow a command. It is this abrogation of personal responsiblity that allowed individuals to follow leaders who commanded hideous things of them, but their obdedience does not, in my opinion, release them from the personal responsibility of having committed the crimes that they did.

In every case, there is always a choice. Occasionally, the choices may be unpaletable, or we may be unable to see what -we- recognize as a viable alternative, but there is -always- a choice to be made. For a servant/slave/submissive individual, one option is -always- that of not obeying an order that one cannot align with one's conscience. The results may be discipline, dismissal, departure, or even death, but one must weigh these seemingly poor outcomes against the balance of the conscience... once that weight is given, the way that the individual responds is -completely- his or her own responsibility.

This reality does -not- abrogate an owner from his or her own ethical responsibility. If an owner commands something that is outside of the framework of his or her servant's ethics, and he -knows- or is -informed- that this is the case and still insists, it is a manifestation of his or her own responsibility in the matter if he or she loses that servant. We must all live with the consequences of our actions, and attempting to shift the blame is a pandemic in our culture, but, on a purely metaphysical level, is nothing more than a panacea -- no matter how much we try to shift the blame, if we have acted or failed to act according to our consciences, each next step coming from the action taken or refused is our very own responsibility.

Lady Zephyr

_____________________________

"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to aurora31)

Post #: 34

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 4:31:02 PM

magdellina

Posts: 3
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline

Lady Zephyr,
i do so enjoy the clarity of Your posts. i have read this thread, and the manner in which You replied is right to the point and very encompassing. thank You for the words.

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)

Post #: 35

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 4:34:07 PM

CERCKL

Posts: 1039
Joined: 3/4/2006
Status: offline

quote:

We must all live with the consequences of our actions, and attempting to shift the blame is a pandemic in our culture, but, on a purely metaphysical level, is nothing more than a panacea -- no matter how much we try to shift the blame, if we have acted or failed to act according to our consciences, each next step coming from the action taken or refused is our very own responsibility

Sitting and amazed once again at the posts...though by no means is everyone, I have seen a predisposition for those involved here as being well thought out, intelligent aware people and that is so appreciated and enjoyed... thank you.
Namaste,
C

_____________________________

AND I AM TOO AN ASSHOLE, I HAVE REFERENCES!!!

"Please, please, please believe me, I really am an asshole. All that Enlightenment and Higher Learning shit was all a ruse."

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)

Post #: 36

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 7:38:33 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

I have been and could be again in headspaces where if I were told to cut off my arm, I'd so without question, without thought, and not think anything was amiss until the next day when I tried to get out of bed.

I'm still responsible for the situation by the consent I gave and actions I performed.

Yet even in that headspace, if they'd told me to cut off a kitten's arm, I wouldn't have done it.

For me the fact is that if I'm willing to do it, I'd do it whether someone told me to do it or not, and if I'm not willing to do it, I would not do it no matter who told me to do it. Saying "He told me to..." doesn't change any bit of that whatsoever.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to aurora31)

Post #: 37

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/6/2006 10:19:10 PM

willowheart

Posts: 25
Joined: 3/25/2006
From: southern Minnesota
Status: offline

to Blkmastersgirl:

My Sir and I are discussing this topic of what makes someone bi-sexual.
Being forced to become bi-sexual is a hard limit for me -- hopefully forever -- for a number of reasons, but mainly because I would hate the idea that my Sir would never be my "whole world" sexually any more...
Could you explain your comment?
Are you sure you have "become" bi-sexual ??
Nerves are simple things. The human body is made to respond to stimuli. Nerves don't judge based on the gender providing the stimulus.
May I suggest that you are most likely NOT bi-sexual??? Rather you are still totally bonded to your heterosexual relationship -- just as before? [The clue for me was the part about where your Master had to tell you to relax. The fact that you listened to His words -- Obeyed Him -- tells me the female who was brought in to you was more like a human dildo or new "toy" in His toy bag He used with you. ]
Your "bonding" emotionally is still heterosexual.
Unless there is something else you could add to explain that you have really & truly turned bi-sexual???

(in reply to Blkmastersgirl)

Post #: 38

RE: Personal responsibility - 4/6/2006 10:33:17 PM

caitlyn

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Joined: 12/22/2004
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What's almost funny aurora, is that some people arrive at the same good girl/bad girl bump in the road, but get there from a completely different direction. Some people want to be the bad girl, but need to dominant to help get them there, because they could never agree to it on their own. You beat yourself up afterwards, and I suppose the other side of the coin beats themselves up before.

As far as someone pushing you past what is acceptable to you or a limit of yours, everyone will respond to that differently. I usually go ahead and do it, providing it isn't too "out there", and then just stop returning that person's calls. Probably a stupid way to handle it ... but I guess I'm stupid sometimes.

(in reply to aurora31)

Post #: 39

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