RE: Life with a new health care bill

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willbeurdaddy -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 2:48:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Eventually I'll be forced to cut out health insurance for my employees, pay the fine and send them off to the government program. I'll pay them the difference between what health care would cost me and the fine, so Obama has forced a portion of their income to be taxed. (So much for no taxes on the middle class). I will pursue tax shelters far more vigorously than I have, and probably stay neutral or reduce my taxes. When I am able to I will move to a no income tax state. And of course, because you are a good employer, you will give your employees a raise equal to the money you were paying for insurance minus the fine...is that right? You know just to help them out. Butch What's the problem here, Butch? It's exactly what he said. And why not? It's the same amount of money. Slash compensation, and people will leave--to work for competitors. No problem...I was thinking what government plan...I thought there was not to be a government option...you have to admit there is not much information on the nuts and bolts. Yes I know I could go search and read the proposal online…but not sure I could understand it. Would it not have been nice to get the particulars out to the general public? Just me but I think if there had been more information and examples there would be less opposition to the plan…People would have a better idea how it would work for them. It should be the job of our representatives to get this information to us…not rhetoric on both sides with no real information. Perhaps willbeurdaddy would not be so ready to dump his employees if he had more information. Butch ROFL. You are the one who lacks information. I have a team of employees who have done nothing but model health care for the last 18 months. If you dont think there is a "government plan" in this bill, you might want to study up on "health care exchanges" and exactly what that has meant in Ma.

Thadius -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 2:55:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius I have come to the conclussion that this is the first step in the proverbial slippery slope, after listening to the President and other leaders in Congress, I actually belive them when they say this is just the first step towards fundamentally changing this country. If such mandates are found to be legal, where is the end to such regulation and mandates? No more disposable razors because of the effects on landfills? Only clothing made of silk, or hemp, or wool? Particular colors because certain dyes contain harmful elements? Limits on the ammount of beef, pork, lamb, fish that any of us eat because of the effects on insurance premiums? Why would you expect any of those things to be even remotely possible, Thadius? This step toward a nationalized health system has been taken many times already, by every other developed country on the planet. How many of them regulate the fabric or the color of the clothes worn by their citizens? Since the answer to that is "none," why would you expect that to be the outcome here in the US? Every country that's adopted national health care has their own personality, their own unique national identity, and in each case that national identity is reflected in the way that they administer their health care system - but in no case has the nationalization of health care significantly altered the country's collective personality. I'm at a loss to understand why anyone would expect that to happen here. Panda, I didn't think it was remotely possible for the US govt to madate that an individual buy a particular item or face fines and jail time. However, that is exactly what is in the legislation facing passage tomorrow. How would any of those things I listed in my hypothetical be possible? It could easily be argued that, any of those things are having an adverse effect on the premiums or insurance pools and thus must be regulated to keep costs down and for a healthier populace. Arguments could stem from allergies to being detrimental to the environment and thus impacting health in a negative way. It is the current administration and leadership in Congress that has stated this is just the "first step in fundamentally changing our country". Can you explain where that ends, or even what the goal of "fundamental change" is? I can honestly state that I am afraid of the precedent that will be set by this bill. Perhaps, the motives and means of passing this bill are of good will, however it lays the groundwork for future abuses and trespassing on our individual rights. It is just as simple as that. I wish you well, Thadius

Thadius -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 2:58:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Thadius,just my opinion here...but I think you are taking the proverbial slope argument just a little too far.As for myself,being currently disabled( and I will not become undisabled anytime soon...lol) I see absolutely no changes and no adjustments necessary.My son though just might be able to remain covered for a little longer post school.....granting him a little more time before he needs to assume that responsibility for himself. I hope that he has the 3.5 years to wait to get that extra coverage time for him...

Musicmystery -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 4:42:05 PM)
quote: We won't be returning to CA either. Thanks for your post, BC. You know, in the other thread, I was wondering about this too. California's referendum system allows people to simultaneously say they want things while saying they'll refuse to increase revenue. As an outside observer, and since governing is making choices, that seems a recipe for disaster--including forcing the kind of changes you had been talking about, whether they make sense or not. In short, I can see leaving CA as a long term strategy. But then, as a resident of another state with complex political problems, I know outsiders can't really grasp the depth of what's going on. Besides--I like it here!

Musicmystery -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 4:48:46 PM)
quote: Afternoon Tim, I am still not convinced that this is going to pass, much less make it passed the court challenges that will be filed by a number of states. That being said, if we assume it makes it into law and stands up to the initial rounds of challenges, I will be saving up for my own legal defense. I have decided that as I am still in reasonably good health, and arguably of sound mind I will be testing the penalties of the individual mandates. Worst case scenario I wind up paying the fine (which is far less than what anual premiums total), and possibly end up spending a few nights in a Federal prison (as much as I hate the idea of a cage it may be the only way to preserve some of my freedoms). I have come to the conclussion that this is the first step in the proverbial slippery slope, after listening to the President and other leaders in Congress, I actually belive them when they say this is just the first step towards fundamentally changing this country. If such mandates are found to be legal, where is the end to such regulation and mandates? No more disposable razors because of the effects on landfills? Only clothing made of silk, or hemp, or wool? Particular colors because certain dyes contain harmful elements? Limits on the ammount of beef, pork, lamb, fish that any of us eat because of the effects on insurance premiums? Hi Thadius, Nice to see you again, my friend. I agree with you that this is hardly passed yet--while the Dems are crowing, I seriously doubt the Repubs have been sitting on their hands. Nor is Sunday's vote the end of the matter by a long shot. The legal challenges I think are more threat than substance. So a state sues to keep its citizens from having insurance--not as clear cut as it may seem. As for your legal future--you aren't insured currently? Isn't there a Chamber of Commerce somewhere you can join or something similar to get a group rate? Wouldn't that make more sense than defending your right to be uninsured? I broke my collarbone years ago when I was young and uninsured. It wasn't a lot of fun. Like others, I really think you're out on a limb with your slippery slope take. In fact, we've had severe rationing and government takeovers of business in the past--and we're still here. I see the Patriot Act as a far worse infringement on our rights. Live well, Tim

TheHeretic -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 4:53:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery I see the Patriot Act as a far worse infringement on our rights. Healthcare reform has a sunset clause?

Musicmystery -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 4:57:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery I see the Patriot Act as a far worse infringement on our rights. Healthcare reform has a sunset clause? OK. I see the Patriot Act as a far worse infringement on our rights with a sunset clause.

kdsub -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 5:03:28 PM)
Your post to me is part of the problem...I looked up what you suggested and what I found there were various proposals...none final... Which of the proposals is now on the board for passage? I am not blaming you and I apologize for my wording.... I just meant if everything were presented as the final proposal for review you could make a better choice. I just don't understand why this information was not presented to the public so we could make a reasonable determination of its worth. It should not take a team of employees 18 months to know... that is my point. Butch

Sanity -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 5:04:13 PM)
What does this have to do with how your life will be under the new bill? Try to stay on topic please. quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery OK. I see the Patriot Act as a far worse infringement on our rights with a sunset clause.

Musicmystery -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 5:48:22 PM)
You'll have to ask Rich. His point. Thadius, I think, is addressing taking this to the legal system himself, and is exactly on point.

Thadius -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 6:24:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: Afternoon Tim, I am still not convinced that this is going to pass, much less make it passed the court challenges that will be filed by a number of states. That being said, if we assume it makes it into law and stands up to the initial rounds of challenges, I will be saving up for my own legal defense. I have decided that as I am still in reasonably good health, and arguably of sound mind I will be testing the penalties of the individual mandates. Worst case scenario I wind up paying the fine (which is far less than what anual premiums total), and possibly end up spending a few nights in a Federal prison (as much as I hate the idea of a cage it may be the only way to preserve some of my freedoms). I have come to the conclussion that this is the first step in the proverbial slippery slope, after listening to the President and other leaders in Congress, I actually belive them when they say this is just the first step towards fundamentally changing this country. If such mandates are found to be legal, where is the end to such regulation and mandates? No more disposable razors because of the effects on landfills? Only clothing made of silk, or hemp, or wool? Particular colors because certain dyes contain harmful elements? Limits on the ammount of beef, pork, lamb, fish that any of us eat because of the effects on insurance premiums? Hi Thadius, Nice to see you again, my friend. I agree with you that this is hardly passed yet--while the Dems are crowing, I seriously doubt the Repubs have been sitting on their hands. Nor is Sunday's vote the end of the matter by a long shot. The legal challenges I think are more threat than substance. So a state sues to keep its citizens from having insurance--not as clear cut as it may seem. As for your legal future--you aren't insured currently? Isn't there a Chamber of Commerce somewhere you can join or something similar to get a group rate? Wouldn't that make more sense than defending your right to be uninsured? I broke my collarbone years ago when I was young and uninsured. It wasn't a lot of fun. Like others, I really think you're out on a limb with your slippery slope take. In fact, we've had severe rationing and government takeovers of business in the past--and we're still here. I see the Patriot Act as a far worse infringement on our rights. Live well, Tim Evening, Life has been keeping me much busier than I would like, but ah that is what makes it worth living, no? As of right now I still have what coverage the VA offers (after means testing), along with an HSA and a high deductible major medical policy. I may be incorrect about the way they are restructuring things, but from my understanding my setup will not be considered "adequate coverage", and I may have to get rid of the setup as is. If that is the case I am prepared to suffer the wrath of the judicial system while fighting for my right to choose to have or not have coverage. Indeed the slippery slope I put forth is stretching it a bit, however that doesn't change the possibility for the mentioned reasons. Just like your state (I believe) is attempting playing with laws regarding salt. Why wouldn't the Fed attempt to do the same type of thing to save money, or to make the actuaries happy when it comes to figuring out risk assessment? Why wouldn't the Fed attempt to regulate consumption of meat, for health reasons, and/or to keep in line with some recommendations that have come out of the UN in recent years? Or even less intrusive, mandate that each of us buy a particular brand of multivitamin to take daily? For the record, I agree with you about the Patriot Act and its infringement on our rights. I had hoped it was going to be allowed to sunset this session, but alas it was extended. As much as I dislike the idea of the government taking over businesses or industries, that is not what I am arguing against (even though it is a valid issue). I am particularly sickened by the way in which this bill goes about achieving a stated agenda (with this being only the first step or foundation0, and the process that has and will be used to attempt to pass it (Constitution be damned). Don't get me wrong, I fully understand that we have been slowly losing our freedoms (even the imagined ones) over the past 50 years or so. I have just, finally, reached my breaking point, and am willing to fight this the only way I know that can make a difference, peacefully via the exact same system that has gotten us to this point. Continue to live well, Thadius P.S. Thanks for all that you do in teaching our future some critical thinking skills.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 7:10:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Your post to me is part of the problem...I looked up what you suggested and what I found there were various proposals...none final... Which of the proposals is now on the board for passage? I am not blaming you and I apologize for my wording.... I just meant if everything were presented as the final proposal for review you could make a better choice. I just don't understand why this information was not presented to the public so we could make a reasonable determination of its worth. It should not take a team of employees 18 months to know... that is my point. Butch Im not sure what you arent finding. The final proposal is the Senate Bill plus the reconciliation changes that were posted yesterday, plus the doctor fix that Pelosi admits is coming and throws the whole package into deficit territory...even under the zombie economics that the CBO is stuck using. I agree it should not have taken 18 months to get to this point, but what they were doing is modeling the changes as theu came along, not analyzing one bill for that time. In not sure if that was clear.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 7:15:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius Indeed the slippery slope I put forth is stretching it a bit, Your slippery slope may not go far enough, rather than being a stretch. The "process" that the "Constitutional scholar" in the WH doesnt give a fuck about fundamentally threatens the way laws have been made in this country and the way the founders envisioned checks and balances to work.

Thadius -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 7:23:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius Indeed the slippery slope I put forth is stretching it a bit, Your slippery slope may not go far enough, rather than being a stretch. The "process" that the "Constitutional scholar" in the WH doesnt give a fuck about fundamentally threatens the way laws have been made in this country and the way the founders envisioned checks and balances to work. Ah you must be referring to that whole section that talks about both houses actually voting on the exact same language of a bill before it goes on to the president for approval or veto. Not to get to far off topic, I am surprised they didn't include an ammendment in the rules changes they are putting together that restated that rape should be illegal.

TheHeretic -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 7:37:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery OK.I see the Patriot Act as a far worse infringement on our rights with a sunset clause. Thanks for clarifying that, Muse. For someone who loves so much to point out logical fallacies, I had trouble imagining that you would expect to just get away with such a blatant example of apples and oranges.

thornhappy -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 8:00:45 PM)
Did you run into any pre-existing condition issues with your insurance gap? quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Let's get back on track, please. I doubt it will help, Muse, but I really don't know that I'm going to be able to do much. Like a couple hundred million Americans, I'll likely just get swept along. I wonder about something though. A few years ago, I quit my job for a very different one. It was a risk, with a pay cut to begin with. It was tight. I had a nasty note from my bank about insufficient funds a week before my first promotion. For six months, I didn't have any health insurance. If I had been subject to having my tax return confiscated to pay a fine over that, could I have still pulled it off? Will I be able to take the next crazy leap of faith the universe places into my path?

TheHeretic -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 8:39:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thornhappy Did you run into any pre-existing condition issues with your insurance gap? No. That certainly might have been a consideration if I had health issues (but then, I wouldn't have been able to perform my old job with health issues). I went back to the very same provider and primary care doctor after the gap as well. Funny thing though; the new job covers my family as well as myself, and as soon as the coverage kicked in, she had some corrective surgery performed to address a very old injury. A $15 co-pay on the the hospital trip, and $10 each on the post-op prescriptions was our total out-of-pocket.

kdsub -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/20/2010 9:11:00 PM)
quote: health care exchanges HERE seems to be some information on the various plans...not sure if they are the latest but I like the way the information is laid out. Butch

eyesopened -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/21/2010 4:25:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius As of right now I still have what coverage the VA offers (after means testing), along with an HSA and a high deductible major medical policy. I may be incorrect about the way they are restructuring things, but from my understanding my setup will not be considered "adequate coverage", and I may have to get rid of the setup as is. If that is the case I am prepared to suffer the wrath of the judicial system while fighting for my right to choose to have or not have coverage. Thadius, My experience was with the Medicare Modernization Act. I will admit I don't know enough about the nuts and bolts of the healthcare bill but I can tell you, some of the same concerns were voiced regarding the addition of Medicare Part D. There is also a penalty for not having "creditable coverage" under Part D but I assure you, VA benefits are considered creditable coverage and I cannot imagine how that would change under the new healthcare bill. What a lot of people complained about under Part D was that they were being forced to take prescription drug coverage. I had many seniors tell me they weren't taking any medications at all, so why should they be forced by the government to sign on to Part D. The way I explained it is this. It is insurance. Just like you are required by law to have insurance on your car, not because you had an accident or are likely to have an accident, you have insurance to cover "what if" you have an accident. I would then ask the group how many would drop their auto coverage if the law were repealled. I never got an affirmative answer. A person is much more likely to need a drug prescirption one day (or health care) than they are likely to get into an auto accident. There was a little but very little hubbub about MMA and Part D. Could be because it was enacted in 2003 when the Republicans had power, I don't know. But I don't hear anyone, 7 years later, complaining on how it is bankrupting the country. That is why I'm not going to change what I am doing now.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Life with a new health care bill (3/21/2010 6:53:03 AM)
Well, seeing I don't know what is going to be passed, I can't say for sure. What I've been working towards for well over a year now, is switching my primary income source to one that is infinitely mobile (purely online), that has been going well, actually had another record day yesterday, which happens quite regularly when growing. Anyway, over half our income is coming from that now. So, I can live off it if necessary already. We are going to sell our warehouse most likely next spring to one of our current renters, so should be out from that physical chain, whether we will relocate, or go completely online business is dependent how things go down. However, if things go down like I'm expecting as in more and more and more government involvement, well, I plan to be online only, which means, I can move any place on the planet with okay internet access, or incorporate anywhere that would have me. I have less and less loyalty to the dirt I happened to be born upon. So, whatever, I guess, it depends on what this does to taxes, and what obama does next. Regardless, I'm going to be more mobile. Whether that means continuing this hybrid business arrangement, and simply getting a different building ( I want to do that anyway), or if that means I move to Hong Kong, or whichever country is most business positive. That's the good thing about 100% online business, you can just move. There is zero ties to any location really. I use about 10 x 20 area to work from for the online stuff, the other 19800 square feet in the building is rented or for a model I'm not as crazy about anymore. Especially with the unforeseen direction this country is going in, I really don't like having an inventory based immovable (or hard to move) business. So, anyway, I don't trust this government, we (country) are broke, they are adding more brokeness to the mix, and still haven't addressed the financial mess, they are just eyeing healthcare, IMO, as a way to grab more money. I seriously, seriously doubt this will be ran well, whatever form it ends up being, and I seriously, seriously doubt this is their last adventure into changing the way the economy works. Essentially, I don't trust the government, I don't trust that they will do a good job of this, and I think if they get this through, they'll move on to fucking with something that will fuck with me. Oh, like they are now wanting to force everyone to pay taxes on ebay (or any online sale) purchases, and the seller will have to send every buyer a tax form, unless you collect it for every state, and then mail them the taxes. Well, if you are a small seller, that is just a lot of work, and well, they just probably discouraged 1000's from having little hobby jobs on the side. Anyway, it's shit like that, impractical solutions. Why is it my job to collect taxes for Colorado? I'm in Illinois, and I collect taxes if they are from Illinois, I certainly am not going to send every fucking buyer a tax form, and I'm not going to hire an accountant to dole out 50 checks quarterly for every little state. So, anyway, the noose on online sales is beginning as well, the direction of the wind is changing....... It's probably great news for the big boys, but smaller businesses or individuals it's just stupid. I'd rather shut down than deal with that crap. The online stuff I do otherwise isn't sales, so it doesn't matter for that, though ad rates may drop eventually. Anyway, I'm not very optimistic about the future of this country. Nothing is getting freer, that is for sure. I may hire some people for online data entry type activity, but again, I can hire them from any English speaking location on the planet, being online work. I won't be hiring any local people though, as the portion of the business, that we had used some people for in the past, is the portion being shed or reduced at present. But you never know I suppose.... A year ago, I would have said something different.

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