RE: paranoia (Full Version)

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wisdomtogive -> RE: paranoia (3/21/2010 6:18:26 AM)

Lally,
Please do keep in mind what I am going to say is in referrance only to me. If any of this makes sense to you then good:).

As we get older, we become more set in what we want in our life. The type of lifestyle we seek, career, relationship, how we present ourselves to the world...etc, etc. We know that the majority of people in this world have gone through hard knocks, since this is part of living. We though have worked through a lot of our issues, and have been working on healing them. In many cases we are open books to people, more in an effort to let them know 1. who we are and where we came from and 2. to show them there is life beyond the fear of change.

Paranoid yes, something I too have wonder if I was, because the majority of people I have met cling to their victimhood. I became confused if my own expectations for myself was being projected onto others unfairly. With having the attitude of, hey if i can do it[change], so can you. Yet, i have found so many who refuse to do just that, and be it a Dom. a friend or what have you, i just could not deal with their own lack of honesty to themselves. I would at times think maybe i am too picky and I should lower my standards. Thank Goddess I didn't. 

What I do know though is I am not paranoid, nor was I. I just wont settle for certain things. Was I too picky, yes and good thing. Can I trust my judgment? It proved to me more right then wrong. Yes, I went through, as you know a couple Doms that did not work out. I am not hear to explain why or put them down, and I know you are not doing that either.

Is it the frustration of your own choices that bothers you perhaps? Do you wonder why can't I find what I am looking for? Perhaps stop worrying about being paranoid, embrace and hug yourself for having the sense to walk away from relationships that you could not honor in the long run. Embrace that you know yourself and love yourself, and you need a Dom who can do both as well.

Imo, it isn't necessary for a Dom to tear us completely apart to rebuild us. I couldn't accept that in my life. Lets' face it after working on me for all these years, only a fool would think they can get away with that anyways. I still have weak areas which I crave guidance and help on to build up, and Sir knows which ones they are. Help me with those. If there is something that really bothers you about me, that is not part of my core being, let me know and I will jump through loops to better them. To though want to tear me completely down and rebuild only shows me one thing; a person slipping on the label dom who has no sense. That might be someone elses cup of tea, but it sure would not fit for me.
Many Doms feel the need and think they have the right to do just that. That would never work with me, and I could never serve them completely. My respect for them would be gone, as so would I. Am I wrong? Not for myself. I was not born to be torn down and rebuilt into someone's else's version of who I should be. For a Dom to come out of the woods claiming that i must be re constructed is so meaningless to me. It would be equivelent to throwing everything they claim they liked about me out the door. Unfortunately, I have heard stories of this happening.

IMHO, being in this type of relationship gives no one the right to rise above in the relationship and say now time to recreate all of you. This behavior would make me more aware and extremely careful of whom i would serve again. It is a pity that this happens in M/s / D/s, but it doesn't have to be our story. Being choosy only means we don't play games. To me that is not paranoid but having healthy boundaries.  Boundaries for me is honoring my core being/spirit. Don't break it, for I will revolt. Thank Goddess I know the difference.

wisdom



LeatherBentOne -> RE: paranoia (3/21/2010 10:49:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Everyone has baggage or abuses in their past.

It's how you handle it and work with it that's the key.

I find that there are a lot of people who use bdsm as crutch for their problems instead of dealing with them.

This is why it's just a good idea to really talk and get to know someone before you get involved with them.

I'm not into drama, have no desire to be someone's crutch and thus why I chose carefully who I wanted to be with. It wasn't paranoia. It was wanting a certain person in my life and making sure he was who he said he is and that he is a healthy individual.



It was almost 2 yrs that we spoke by phone and I spent a total of 6 weeks with her, and there were no indications or red flags that I could see.  Once we got under the same roof, her true self rose up to the point that, after much effort, I decided I was better off  under my own roof, about a mile away.  She decided not to see or speak to me again, although I explained over and over that I wasn't ending the relationship,but thoought it better for both of us to live apart in the same vicinity.  The fact that I moved a mile away,in my mind, would prove that I wasn't ending the relationship, but she was and did.  I did receive a few nasty letters, the second of which I didnt open, burned the edges with my lighter and sent it back to her in a separate envelope, no note attached.  That ended the letters. I guess my response said it all.

LBO



beej -> RE: paranoia (3/21/2010 12:49:25 PM)

quote:

pretty much every D ive ever been with has attempted at some point to make me feel less than i am - and yet later - afterwards when ive had to get out - theyve all, pretty much, told me that i was the best slave theyd ever had. tell me what thats about. why demoralise and de-value what you have if you actually believe you have something worth having.

the 'dream' of being risen up to being more than i am - given the 'freedom' of enslavement to fully express myself and let that expand into normal life is still just a dream. do we really have to be stripped down and laid bare before that can happen.


for myself, i think there is a big difference between experiences that don't feel good and experiences that make you feel bad about yourself, and i don't think that feeling bad about yourself is necessary. in fact, i would argue that that's the difference between kink and disorder: kink, even if it feels bad in some way, augments a person's psyche. in your OP, you seemed to just have gotten a little carried away with dwelling, and there's nothing wrong with that; pondering like that doesn't typically last long. however in later comments, you seem to gridlocked about specific personal things, and what you said doesn't seem like paranoia at all but like self-assessment. not being able to reach your goal of full expression and interior freedom is a big statement; i mean, that's a life's work, achieving those things, and it's mostly work that you have to do yourself. even your Doms are only springboards for you to find that fulfillment, but i wouldn't worry over much that you haven't found something so grand just yet. just because those relationships ended without getting you to nirvana doesn't mean that there was something wrong with them. however, if you really do see a pattern, a particular place in your relationships where you've experienced a block, it behooves you to reconsider what your Doms did but to also reconsider your reactions not so much to figure out who "should" have done what but to figure out what will work toward getting you where you want to be.

that said, it's easy when you've an analytical mind (and i do too) to misplace emphasis and significance or to assign more power to things than they deserve. could be that you've been giving too much sway to these humiliations handed out by your Doms. there are gut reactions to degrading things that generally preserve us from being mistreated, and that's good and necessary, but in a kinky moment, those reactions don't apply in the same way. when the moment is over, or when a relationship is over especially, it's easy to go back and interpret those moments as something sinister, but you could the same if you went back to mere arguments and dwelt on how loudly someone yelled or what kinds of names they called you. you seem to have a good head on your shoulders, from all the comments that i've read of yours, and you should trust yourself even if you can't trust everyone in the world. be wise, know that those things are out there, but remember that trepidation is not a good companion in life. freedom such as you seem to desire isn't about being free of bad things; it's about going forth with gusto even though anything could happen.



MasterBelial -> RE: paranoia (3/21/2010 2:22:11 PM)

You should be wary but not paranoid.  Everyone has issues, even you do.  Some people have dealt with them and others not.  Just make sure you actually trust someone before you give yourself away to them.  Comfort isnt trust, and love isnt trust.  Be smart and you have nothing to be afraid of.  If you dont know if you trust someone, then you dont.

Master Belial



SailingBum -> RE: paranoia (3/22/2010 10:08:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2



i think that many D types fail to understand that the space they are creating into which they wish their submissive to submit into has to be fun (FFS), i mean, where the hell did all the fun get to.  horny yes, sexually, physically, emotionally horny sexy happy bloody fun!!! - it needs to be positive and enriching, enjoyable and just a mutually enhancing, adult reciprocation of two personality types that should compliment each other.

id better get out in that weather and get blown about by the elements - wish me luck, ziggie is awful to ride in the wind - i may not return [&:]

(takes deep breath)


But but but lally that is where the fun is...  Living on the edge

SailingBum



dreamerdreaming -> RE: paranoia (3/22/2010 11:11:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz


This is perhaps going to sound cynical but I think a lot of these guys over complicate things. They get wound up in competition with other dominants and become embroiled in proving themselves, not only to a sub but to everyone else they think may be watching! 



thanks, all of that made sense completely.  the highlighted bit especially - i think thats the bit im so damn sick of.  the game, the proving themselves, the stepping out of normal male/female emotions and assuming some attitude, posture or perceived personality that isnt genuine, it isnt a warm place it isnt even particularly attractive.

i think that many D types fail to understand that the space they are creating into which they wish their submissive to submit into has to be fun (FFS), i mean, where the hell did all the fun get to.  horny yes, sexually, physically, emotionally horny sexy happy bloody fun!!! - it needs to be positive and enriching, enjoyable and just a mutually enhancing, adult reciprocation of two personality types that should compliment each other.

[quote/]


Snipped for brevity-

If "doms" are so immature and insecure, that they're engaging in schoolyard pissing contests and one-upmanship, they don't deserve to have anyone submit to them  ( unless its someone who's playing them, too). Hell- they don't even deserve vanilla, if they're that immature and clueless. Why would a grown woman want to be with a "man" who is so emotionally stunted, and insecure? My son was more mature than that, when he was fourteen.


By all means, lally, run fast and far away from these incredibly clueless "doms". Any dom worth his salt will want to laugh and be playful, and have LOTS of FUN with you!  

Any dom who knows his ass from a hole in the ground will know that the goal is MUTUAL pleasure, fulfillment and self-actualization. He won't be posing, and trying to pump up his flagging self-esteem, and trying to hide his insecurity, by acting a part.



SlaveSubtoserve -> RE: paranoia (4/21/2010 8:01:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

It never surprises me when a submissive opens up and tells us about all her past demons. She has celebrated opening herself up sexually. She has revealed and had her fantasy accepted. She has shown us her vulnerabilities and had those very vulnerabilities nurtured. Its liberating and that may be the very same reason she decides to tell us about the darker moments in her life. Telling us about her darker moments should be equally liberating except in most cases they are not are they? we are not therapists and most of us don't know how to handle such a confession. Oh we know how to dominate her and how to take her to that wonderfully hedonistic place but we weren't expecting the baggage too!!
There is a clear pattern to this, we just don't see it and we jump to the wrong assumption that most submissives come into this because they are damaged. They don't, not in most cases anyway. I was with my ex husband for 10 years before he told me about some awful incident in his past that affected many years of his life. It was 10 years before I took him down that submissive path and it was that path that helped him to open up and free that demon that had haunted him for years.

Dominants do not lay themselves vulnerable in the same sense. They are far less likely to own up to something awful from their past than a submissive is.




I don't understand how you can say this any legitimate degree of certitude ATJ . In some cases with some of us, some of that baggage could be a very big trunk that still is unconscious to the person for most if not possibly all their life. You seem to be making the above conclusion based on things that are able to come to the fore relatively quickly after the person's fantasy fullfillment. Most likely those were discrete events or a series of such after a certain early age. Depending on age of occurence. a big trunk may still remain under the psyche's rug to emerge down the road or not as the lifestyle/life itself may help to gradually unpack it all.........I know this can be criticized as mouthing the conventional wisdom connecting BDSM to early trauma which many in the scene disparage, but unconscious trauma is very difficult to verbalize and hence validate clearly.



allthatjaz -> RE: paranoia (4/22/2010 1:55:57 AM)

I only say this because of the large amount of people that reveal their demons to their dominant or to these forums. How many times do we hear on this very site about past rape, past child abuse, abusive relationships etc? How many dominants tell us of ex or present subs that had the most heinous experiences? It happens a lot.

Of course some amongst us have unconscious trauma. Things so awful that there is no conscious memory of those events and those very events could be the unconscious key into a certain type of lifestyle and in turn that lifestyle could eventually reveal something and in turn heal it.

I think this lifestyle can be a hugely healing place but I don't believe that the majority of people that come here are any more damaged than the rest of society.






lally2 -> RE: paranoia (4/22/2010 2:34:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

I only say this because of the large amount of people that reveal their demons to their dominant or to these forums. How many times do we hear on this very site about past rape, past child abuse, abusive relationships etc? How many dominants tell us of ex or present subs that had the most heinous experiences? It happens a lot.

Of course some amongst us have unconscious trauma. Things so awful that there is no conscious memory of those events and those very events could be the unconscious key into a certain type of lifestyle and in turn that lifestyle could eventually reveal something and in turn heal it.

I think this lifestyle can be a hugely healing place but I don't believe that the majority of people that come here are any more damaged than the rest of society.






it can be healing, incredibly healing and it can help you grow more openly into youreself when youre with a partner that wishes to facilitate that.  ive recently realised though, that in the years of pursuing myself and this and in finding a partner i have become emotionally withdrawn up to a point. 

in giving myself out to such a level on one or two occasions, only to have to haul that back when ive realised it wasnt right has caused me to become a little closed.

but now that ive identified that, im in the process of dealing with that and i realise that because of this lifestyle i have learnt how to be strong emotionally and now its time to capitilize.  part of that emotional shut down was baggage from ages ago too, its only from my experiences 'here' that ive recognised that and found a way to deal with it.

everyone comes from the same start in life, pretty much.  i dont believe we are any different to anyone else, how can we be - but i do think that this lifestyle facilitates healing but it also facilitates the dumping of baggage in one form or another for some, with the faint hope that abbreaction, freedom to be youreself, acceptability levels of behaviour and attitude relaxed to some degree means that you can release youre demons.  just that sometimes freedom and impunity can sometimes get a bit too close to each other.




jbcurious -> RE: paranoia (4/22/2010 5:57:59 AM)

This has been a really interesting thread to read and has brought up a lot of thoughts in reference to different replies... so instead of doing the cut and paste... because there are so many different things I´m replying too... I´m just going to ramble a bit.  The fact that I use myself as examples is simply because I feel I can speak with more authority about my own experiences rather than vague assumptions of what others may or may not feel.

In regards to baggage... It seems that has become a catch all phrase for just about any feeling or emotion that has a negative quality as regards to how society deems an emotionally healthy person to respond in certain circumstances and the fact is it´s not always "baggage" but rather who we are.

I was an incredibly shy child, nothing happened to me... I grew up in a very stable and loving home environment.  I am just a shy person...experiences in childhood from the fact that I was shy have contributed to having a fear of rejection and pushed me to overcome my shyness... but it doesn´t change that fact that the shy girl is still inside me regardless of how social and extroverted I may appear and my fear of rejection doesn´t come from feeling that I´m not "good enough" because I have quite a healthy level of self esteem... and often realize that I´m probably a better person then those that would reject me... but it´s still a feeling I try to avoid.  This isn´t baggage... it´s just who I am and I think there are many personality traits in people that get labelled as baggage and reasons sought, when there are none... It´s simply a matter of that´s who they are.

We all have things in our past that are traumatic to one degree or another... I´ve had 2, one in vanilla land and one in BDSM.   I have dealt with those issues, the fact that they happened has made me a bit more cautious and questioning... but there is no baggage to deal with... if that were the case my interaction with men would not be as healthy as it is.  Which brings me to the this idea of breaking someone down and building them back up....

Lally, I get the feeling from what you´ve said that you have the same feelings about this that I do.  There´s nothing so wrong with me that you need to break me down.... what´s wrong with the person that I am that you would feel this need to "re make" me?  ... and where is your psychology degree that gives you the knowledge to even attempt such a thing?  I know that there are area´s inside myself that I would love to improve... that can happen in an atmosphere of loving encouragement... there´s no need to tear down the person it´s taken 50 years to create in order to accomplish this.

Regarding paranoia... yes, I think you should question the motives behind someone who feels a need to do this...  is it being done for you or to facilitate some self serving attitude in a Dom who feels the need to tear you down?  There are people in all walks of life who seek those who show a vulnerability or need and use those things to their own advantage... having a healthy sense of self preservation is a good thing and I wouldn´t consider it paranoia at all.



Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: paranoia (4/22/2010 1:06:59 PM)

My illusions of people were shattered at an early age in my life, there are many people with many demons or fucked up issues. Some people just have more issues than penthouse, playboy and hustler combined. Some people have issues that are explosive landmines for other people to accidentially step on. The world is full of diverse characters, personalities and persona's. Facades? Pfffttt... everybody has their own protective facades or shells that they hide to behind. Some people just have extremely big facades and others have smaller ones. People are not as transparent as we would think they are. Deep relationships is where people can let down the facades and become more transparent. Still none the less, being 100% transparent and facade free.. Pffftt it's a myth. People tend to have agendas aka goals or objectives in mind. At times these things are behind the facades, at times they are 100% out in the open. This just is part of human nature.

Perhaps this sounds mean, but I don't prescribe to the "I'm Okay and you're Okay" school of thought when it comes to people in general. Some people are not okay, are far from Okay as Okay can be. What blows my mind is that some people are so afraid of "prejudice" that they tend to engage in being "sub judice". There's nothing wrong with judging other people. This is a self protective mechanism! Let's you figure out who you can or can not trust. "Sub judice" is just a term for under judgement. We really don't talk much about it, and it tends to be associated with legal terminology.

You can only give people only so much benefit of doubt, you can only give so much trust. There are times when people show themselves and what they are all about, it's time to run like hell for your life, or otherwise shut them out of your life. This reduces Drama, pain, heartbreak and being screwed over.

Amazing thoughts, for those that try to help change their friends or other people. "If you can't change your friends, change your friends." Basically, the people you associate with in your life have direct effect and influenece upon your own life.

It's never the good qualities of people that will bite you in the ass, it's the bad qualities or the fucked up things that will bite you in the ass.



SlaveSubtoserve -> RE: paranoia (4/27/2010 7:26:29 AM)

Thanks AllThatJazz as I now grasp your overall point and do agree with what you are saying as you expanded on it a bit more above.

Unconscious trauma could be horrible stuff or not so horrible but just some stuff, its just that it may or may not ever really come out so neatly and clearly as some of the more conscious events depending on age of occurence, etc.



allthatjaz -> RE: paranoia (4/27/2010 8:11:28 AM)

I'm not sure if age comes into it.

I didn't know until I reached my 40s that a pillow over my face would freak me out so much that I thought I would have a heart attack or that waking me from my sleep in a firm hold would throw me into a blind panic. Not only did I hit a blind panic but days of being on a low after it occurred and even thoughts of ending our otherwise beautiful relationship. With all the caring, understanding and patience in the world from my partner I still found myself blaming him for the panic attacks I suffered after the event.
That dark place was waiting to come out at any age. I could of been 16, 20 odd or in my 60s. It was there, repressed in a deep dark void. I understood why I reacted the way I did. I believed I was no longer embroiled in past events, that it was all neat and tidy but there was a little part of me that was still that prisoner and all it needed was a BDSM act to bring that out of me.
I'm not sure if it helped me. Terror is an uncontrollable emotion and although its something we have gently worked with since, its still a dark place that I actually didn't need or want at this point in my life.



pdv99 -> RE: paranoia (4/27/2010 2:46:43 PM)

Just because you aren't paranoid doesn't mean "they" aren't all out there waiting to "get" you.........



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