quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
i asked a question of those present, which i would like to ask here of those who are in a obedience based M/s relationship and that question is this, do you (a) have a punishment dynamic, (b) think there has to be some mechanism to deal with mistakes/disobedience, or (c) can a M/s relationship work with no way to deal with mistakes/disobedience.

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
i was wondering what motivates the M-type to want a M/s relationship.

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ORIGINAL: osf
thinks we should differentiate between correctable behavior and punishable behavior

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

LadyPact, thank you for your reply. It made a lot of sense and also would be a dynamic that i feel like i could function well in. May i ask a question that is slightly off topic, but also came up this weekend. And i only ask because your relationship with Clip has progressed from D/s to M/s, was there a shift in your thinking about the relationship when you made that switch, something different from being Clip's Dominant to being his Mistress?

Part of what i was trying to ask in the inital post about a Master's perspective is why chose to be a Master or Mistress instead of a Dominant or Domme, what were you looking for in the relationship or out of the relationship to want to be Master or Mistress? i don't think i stated that additional question very well in the initial post. i spent a great deal of time this weekend hearing about M/s relationships from the perspective of the s-type, i was wondering what motivates the M-type to want a M/s relationship.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

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ORIGINAL: lally2

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

.. And while i completely agree that i shouldn't look for someone who sees punishment as the first and last option, i also don't want to discount someone who is a fabulous M-type (like LadyPact (for example)) just because they do hold out the right to punish if necessary.

.

if you were lucky enough to find youreself a LadyPact-alike - youd be in a relationship where punishment would be the absolutely last resort after everything else had been looked at.  knowing you only from youre posts i would say that in that case you would not be punished because for you to get something so horribly wrong there would have to be a good reason behind it.

a fabulous M-type who also encorporates punishment is more likely to be someone who will look at the whole picture first and resort to punishment last of all.

...its finding them -  thats the hard part,  [:D] -

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

LadyPact, thank you for your reply. It made a lot of sense and also would be a dynamic that i feel like i could function well in. May i ask a question that is slightly off topic, but also came up this weekend. And i only ask because your relationship with Clip has progressed from D/s to M/s, was there a shift in your thinking about the relationship when you made that switch, something different from being Clip's Dominant to being his Mistress?

Part of what i was trying to ask in the inital post about a Master's perspective is why chose to be a Master or Mistress instead of a Dominant or Domme, what were you looking for in the relationship or out of the relationship to want to be Master or Mistress? i don't think i stated that additional question very well in the initial post. i spent a great deal of time this weekend hearing about M/s relationships from the perspective of the s-type, i was wondering what motivates the M-type to want a M/s relationship.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

Always be assured, heartfelt, that I never mind folks asking Me additional questions.  I will always try to answer them to the best of My ability.

There absolutely was a shift and it was brought out by multiple circumstances.  Without boring you by too much detail, I think it's important to remember here that, when I first got clip almost three years ago, he started as play partner and then became My sub on what we thought was going to be a temporary basis.  The reason he was in My location was due to a year long training stint.  In the beginning, we weren't really sure how that was going to work out.  Both of us went into the dynamic with the realization that, when we were going to be in different locations, it was very possible that we couldn't be successful.  Once that time came, neither of us wanted to end the dynamic, and that's how he became Mine as it is today.

Another factor was that clip and I came from very different experience levels when we first started out.  While clip had bottoming experience and a very submissive personality, he'd never been a submissive in a dynamic.  On the other hand, I'm a very high protocol, leather leaning Mistress who's led dynamics before.  The scales were rather heavy in My favor and he had some catching up to do. 

In the beginning, there were also areas of clip's life that he wasn't sure he was ready to hand over control.  At the time, he wasn't ready to surrender them or yield.  I knew this about him, and was willing to accept him with those terms.  However if it wasn't going to be complete, in My view, that was a D/s dynamic rather than a M/s one.  We specifically picked another title that was appropriate for D/s for him to use for Me.  I didn't want him calling Me "Mistress" if he was not a slave.  It just didn't sit right.

I'll probably have some folks that will blast Me for this last one, but our bond deepening did have something to do with it.  We didn't start with the connection that we have now.  That was a missing element.

Just shy of him being collared to Me for two years, we were sitting together (meaning him at My feet) and it occurred to Me that none of the reasons that I had at the start for not terming this a M/s dynamic existed anymore.  There was not a thing in My reasonable mind that he would not do in his service to Me.  In the course of time, he had surrendered in every way that he wasn't ready to at first.  My ownership of him didn't have those boundaries anymore.  There weren't things holding us back any longer.  We had moved past all of that.  The only thing left to do, was to start calling it the right term.

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
Over the weekend, i asked a question of those present, which i would like to ask here of those who are in a obedience based M/s relationship and that question is this, do you (a) have a punishment dynamic, (b) think there has to be some mechanism to deal with mistakes/disobedience, or (c) can a M/s relationship work with no way to deal with mistakes/disobedience. For a long time, i have said that i wouldn't do well in a relationship that has a punishment dynamic. That statement became clearer to me this weekend, when i realized that while yes, physical punishment due to my childhood abuse would not be good for me, other forms of punishment would not have the same mental affect. That being said, there was still an internal fear of having a punishment dynamic even if it wasn't physical because of level of authority i would be given to another to give them the "right" to punish me if i screw up was really the underlying fear, not just the fear of physical repercussions.  So i am looking for some answers to the previous questions and also for any who have a punishment dynamic, did you go into it with a similar fear of the giving of that much authority to someone else?

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
What also came up this weekend, is my realization, or verbalization of my inability to, of my own volition, end a close emotionally based relationship, which was part of what i was addressing in the Conditioning or Choice thread. So part of what i would like to ask is of Master's who seek to internally enslave their slaves, what kind of thought process went into seeking to do that, what kind of questions did you ask yourself, what kind of questions would you want a potential slave to ask you before entering into such a relationship?

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ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I know quite a number of CM posters in real life and some of those I know quite well. People like MercnBeth, Leadership527, Bossyshoebitch, and others, NONE of whom would be or are in a relationship where punishment plays any significant part in shaping the desired behavior but trust me, the "desired behavior" is very much shaped in those relationships.

In my experience in real world bdsm those who talk a lot about punishment tend to have either lots of short term relationships or shallow/loveless ones. Those who talk about shaping behavior though positive reinforcement or just play talking stuff out, are the ones who tend to have what I would call real relationships with depth.

* snipped for brevity

However, unless you have seen really wonderful M/s relationships its hard to judge which is which.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

In the beginning, there were also areas of clip's life that he wasn't sure he was ready to hand over control.  At the time, he wasn't ready to surrender them or yield.  I knew this about him, and was willing to accept him with those terms.  However if it wasn't going to be complete, in My view, that was a D/s dynamic rather than a M/s one.  We specifically picked another title that was appropriate for D/s for him to use for Me.  I didn't want him calling Me "Mistress" if he was not a slave.  It just didn't sit right.

I'll probably have some folks that will blast Me for this last one, but our bond deepening did have something to do with it.  We didn't start with the connection that we have now.  That was a missing element.

Just shy of him being collared to Me for two years, we were sitting together (meaning him at My feet) and it occurred to Me that none of the reasons that I had at the start for not terming this a M/s dynamic existed anymore.  There was not a thing in My reasonable mind that he would not do in his service to Me.  In the course of time, he had surrendered in every way that he wasn't ready to at first.  My ownership of him didn't have those boundaries anymore.  There weren't things holding us back any longer.  We had moved past all of that.  The only thing left to do, was to start calling it the right term.

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ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
What also came up this weekend, is my realization, or verbalization of my inability to, of my own volition, end a close emotionally based relationship, which was part of what i was addressing in the Conditioning or Choice thread. So part of what i would like to ask is of Master's who seek to internally enslave their slaves, what kind of thought process went into seeking to do that, what kind of questions did you ask yourself, what kind of questions would you want a potential slave to ask you before entering into such a relationship?

We didn't ask each other any questions, but then again, we'd been a couple for something like 12 years before we started this. Honestly, what questions would you need to ask at that point that you shouldn't already have answers to. I don't ever expect to have a "potential slave" again... but if I did, she and I would already know the answers to any questions long before discussions of M/s came up. I cannot see myself as having any interest in someone who wanted to START a relationship on anything other than a vanilla basis with maybe some moderate D/s thrown in. Insofar as my reasoning for going the internal enslavement route (you're phrase, not mine), I went that path because it is efficient.

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
First of all LadyPact, thank you so much for your reply. You used a couple of phrases or terms that i have specifically highlighted that i would like to ask an additional question or two about. The terms were "not complete" and "surrendered". For you, and i realize that some might be offended by the questions, please understand that i am trying to work out something internally and not casting aspersions on anyone or anyone's relationships, is a relationship without total surrrender incomplete? Does the lack of total surrender leave parts of you unfed?

That is part of where i am coming to internally. Yes i can see it will take time, trust, a deeper connection, all those things that you mentioned, but i am starting to see that i have been not surrendering in an effort to protect myself, out of a multitude of fears that i don't need to bring up again and that somewhere deep inside is the desire to surrrender, to give all that i am into the keeping of another. The last part is still a bit scary, what will the keeping of another be like, which is part of why i am asking the question of what makes a person want to be a Master, to see what a Master/Mistress gets out of having someone be in their keeping.

Thank you again for your reply LadyPact.

heartfelt

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(a) have a punishment dynamic, (b) think there has to be some mechanism to deal with mistakes/disobedience, or (c) can a M/s relationship work with no way to deal with mistakes/disobedience

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ORIGINAL: ishyB

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(a) have a punishment dynamic, (b) think there has to be some mechanism to deal with mistakes/disobedience, or (c) can a M/s relationship work with no way to deal with mistakes/disobedience

Greetings heartfelt,

A) no
B) yes - but this doesn't imply there has to be punishment, there just has to be "a way" to deal with mistakes and disobedience
C) no - because that would imply that problems are ignored instead of dealt with, but again, dealing with problems doesn't imply corporal punishment or any other type of punishment for that matter

Honestly, I think you are over analyzing this whole thing.
I don't think that punishment dynamics like the ones you are imagining really exist, or would work if they existed.

I mean that in the sense that, if there is a problem somewhere that causes a slave type to disobey, and the only way the D-type would deal with that problem is by beating/punishing her, nothing would ever get fixed, and nothing would ever move forward.

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Now, AFTER such steps have been taken to correct such issues, a physical "punishment" may take place, but I don't believe that I can ever be the objective of the punishment to correct the issue. Instead, it's more of a cleansing process that symbolizes the relationship they have towards one another, and mentally wipes clean the slate for the s-type. She has "paid" for her wrong doings and is now given another chance to try to be better at pleasing him.

The effectiveness of this symbolic act differs from person to person. Not all s-types will react with a sense of relief to such a symbolic punishment; some may even react opposite to it to the effect it is trying to achieve (feeling more guilty and such afterwards, instead of better.) In such cases, I really don't see a purpose for even having such symbolic acts, because they obviously serve no constructive purpose.

If punishment acts like that are actually seen by the D-type as the solution for a problem instead of a symbolic act to underline the nature of their relationship, I would suggest that he doesn't have the first clue of how to handle a voluntary slave. The only way a punishment can actually work to fix something is if you are in a situation where you can instill literal fear in the person being punished (like in a legal type slavery.) Because of the legality of the context in which we practice slavery, something like that is not only impossible, but also unwanted... why would you want to create true fear, and thus also haltered for you in your s-type?

As to how it works in my personal life.
Master does beat me on occasion, after having been displeased by me. I can probably count all of them on both hands over the course of a year and a half, but I haven't kept score.
When he does beat me, it is sever, often to the point where my knees buckle out from underneath me.
I dread these occasions and would do almost anything to prevent them from happening.

However, I've never felt like these beating were to be the solution to fix the problem that had caused his displeasement. By the time it came to me being beaten, we had already talked to the extent that the problem was fixed. The beating also does not serve as much as a punishment, because of the inconsistency at which they are administered. Sometimes I got beat for minor offenses, while other times grievous offences have been left unpunished (though dealt with). Instead, the beatings are a symbolic act between the both of us, in which he basically emphasizes the fact that I am his.

He claims me as his when he beats me, in a sense even saying that I still have value to him, because I know he wouldn't even take the time or effect to beat me if I did not have value to him.
The strokes of his whip never tell me: "you are bad; I am mad; you did something wrong."
Instead they say: "you are MINE!"

In that way -for us- it is in a sense a loving act, in which he re-claims me once again as his slave, in which he shows me that he cares about me and in which I show him that I am still offering myself to him to do with as he pleases.

I wish you well,

ishy

quote:

For you, and i realize that some might be offended by the questions, please understand that i am trying to work out something internally and not casting aspersions on anyone or anyone's relationships, is a relationship without total surrrender incomplete? Does the lack of total surrender leave parts of you unfed?

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

i have seen situations where the punishment was because the M-type was pissed and was not to rectify anything, just to inflict pain because he was angry. If it was a reclaiming that motivation would be entirely different in my opinion.

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ORIGINAL: ishyB

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For you, and i realize that some might be offended by the questions, please understand that i am trying to work out something internally and not casting aspersions on anyone or anyone's relationships, is a relationship without total surrrender incomplete? Does the lack of total surrender leave parts of you unfed?

Greetings hearthfelt,

I realize this question wasn't directed at me, but I'd like to reply anyways, if you don't mind.

Think about what you are asking...

The type of internal enslavement you are talking about cannot be reached in a day. In fact, it take a very very long to achieve it -if that's the goal, which it isn't for most- IF it even CAN be achieved within a certain relationship, which I mentioned to you before, I don't think happens in most of the M/s relationships out there, even if that is the mutual goal.

Considering that it is such a long process that not always can be achieve, that would leave any D-type preferring such a relationship dissatisfied for the most part during their relationship, if they could only be satisfied by the end-state.

Instead, I'd like to suggest to you that, for most all D-type (all I've ever known of at the very least) who like these types of relationships, it isn't the end-goal that makes them satisfied, it is the process.

No rational D-type will expect or demand complete unconditional surrender from the start, that would be absolutely impossible to achieve, and they would thus set themselves up to fail from the beginning.
Instead, what they usually do expect in my experience, is ongoing progress towards more surrender, trust, obedience, slavery, whatever you want to name it.

D-types like this tend to get dissatisfied if the relationship becomes stagnant and doesn't deepen or explore anymore. No matter what level of surrender is achieved, it seem that they are always looking, and hungry for more, always looking to push it that one step further, and the fact that they can is where their satisfaction comes from.
A capable D-type will do this pushing at a pace and manner that is acceptable for both parties in the relationship, resulting in a strengthening of their bond, incapable ones will push too hard too fast, and will more than likely end up destroying the relationship.

I wish you well,

Ishy

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ORIGINAL: ishyB

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

i have seen situations where the punishment was because the M-type was pissed and was not to rectify anything, just to inflict pain because he was angry. If it was a reclaiming that motivation would be entirely different in my opinion.

If that's the case, I would be weary of such a person, very weary in fact.

Master sometimes gets annoyed and will unload his frustrations on me, generally by being a total prick (worse then he usually is[8|]).
However, it is always known to both of us that, while I may act as a vessel for him to outpour his frustrations on -much like beating a pillow would be- it isn't my FAULT that he is acting the way that he is.
I am not expected to feel bad, or guilty, or upset about it, nor is it my responsibility to fix it, or change anything.
All I'm expected to do is to serve him, just like I would any other time; this time just in a different fashion then is common for us.

His emotions are his responsibility, not mine, and as such I am not held accountable for his anger, even when I might be a part of the cause of that anger.

An M-type who would hit out of anger, because they are unable to control that anger, is not able to be in control of themselves, and as such, not capable of controlling another and as such, very unlikely to be able to achieve the type of internal enslavement we are discussing.

I would personally not be inclined to stay with anybody who blamed me for their own emotions, even if my behavior might be what provoked their emotion. One always has the choice how to emotionally react to the actions of others, and blaming the others for the EMOTION that occurred, instead of the action is shrieking personal accountability, and to me, very unattractive in an M-type.

I wish you well,

ishy