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RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/28/2010 7:18:31 AM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
I am one of the millions of Americans who voted for "Country First".

So you voted in favor of improving the lives of your fellow countrymen?
quote:


The Republican's war spending not only pales in comparison to the Democrats's social spending but was bi-partisan spending rather than partisan spending like the Democrat's is.

It's not just war spending - the deficit has reached record highs under EVERY SINGLE Republican administration at least going back to Reagan.
quote:


Why people like myself have issue with "Obamacare" is simply because it is not about health care per se, rather it is about the Federal government taking control of a private industry

Why should this be private industry in the first place?
quote:


Federal government takeover of the college student loan industry...

Which has always been a federal matter to begin with. It had simply been contracted out to banks at great expense to the taxpayers.


(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 201
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/28/2010 7:28:47 AM   
Alphascendant


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If the Social Security Program currently has a balance of 2.5 trillion, as reported in the N.Y. Times, shouldn't that money be considered debt as well? After all, it is owed to the citizens. that would make the deficit nearly 4 billion. So the Fed practices fractional reserve lending, and Congress practices fractional reserve borrowing by borrowing money that has already been borrowed. They borrow the money from the people, put it in a fund promising to give it back, and then borrow it from the fund to put into other programs while promising to pay that back. Borrowing the same dollar twice. Maybe that is why they were in such a rush to pass the new health care tax, because they knew that the Social Security gravy train was about to run dry and they needed a new tax to make up the difference. And why isn't anybody discussing the CLASS Act that was included in the health care bill?

The capitol of the United States was moved from New York City to Washington D.C. Maybe the only way to really clean house is to move it again. How does Kansas City sound?

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 202
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/28/2010 8:07:18 AM   
RacerJim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

How do you know? He had everything to do with his education sealed by an army of lawyers.



Yeah, and when are we going to see his Kenyan birth certificate? 



And what does his birth certificate, Hawaiian or Kenyan, have to do with his educational records? Or any of the plethera of other records he has sealed?

Prey tell me what company would hire an applicant for its President/CEO who sealed all their records immediately prior to/shortly after applying for the job and then hired a law firm to keep those records hidden from the company?

BTW: It doesn't matter where Barack Obama, aka Barry Obama, aka Barry Soetoro was born. The plain and simple fact that his father never was a U.S. Citizen prevents him from being a "natural born citizen" according to four legacy SCOTUS cases and, therefore, from meeting the U.S. Constitution's criteria that only a "natural born citizen" may serve at POTUS. Not to say I expect anything to come of that, just to say that Obama has perpetrated the most outlandish and potentially destructive fraud on the American people in history.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 203
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/28/2010 8:38:50 AM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
BTW: It doesn't matter where Barack Obama, aka Barry Obama, aka Barry Soetoro was born. The plain and simple fact that his father never was a U.S. Citizen prevents him from being a "natural born citizen" according to four legacy SCOTUS cases and, therefore, from meeting the U.S. Constitution's criteria that only a "natural born citizen" may serve at POTUS. Not to say I expect anything to come of that, just to say that Obama has perpetrated the most outlandish and potentially destructive fraud on the American people in history.

Actually, EITHER parent can pass on natural-born citizenship. Obama's mother was a US citizen, therefore he is a natural-born US citizen regardless of where he was born.

The most interesting aspect of this whole matter actually is that Obama's opponent John McCain clearly was NOT born on US soil, and inherited his citizenship the same way Obama would have if he was born in Kenya: from his parents.


(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 204
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/28/2010 8:50:59 AM   
Alphascendant


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Sorry, that doesn't work, or there would be no debate on that issue.

Anyone born inside the United States *
Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe
Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.

(in reply to cadenas)
Profile   Post #: 205
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/28/2010 8:59:23 AM   
RacerJim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
I am one of the millions of Americans who voted for "Country First".

So you voted in favor of improving the lives of your fellow countrymen?
quote:


The Republican's war spending not only pales in comparison to the Democrats's social spending but was bi-partisan spending rather than partisan spending like the Democrat's is.

It's not just war spending - the deficit has reached record highs under EVERY SINGLE Republican administration at least going back to Reagan.
quote:


Why people like myself have issue with "Obamacare" is simply because it is not about health care per se, rather it is about the Federal government taking control of a private industry

Why should this be private industry in the first place?
quote:


Federal government takeover of the college student loan industry...

Which has always been a federal matter to begin with. It had simply been contracted out to banks at great expense to the taxpayers.




I voted for someone with a history of putting his country/countrymen ahead of himself rather than someone with a history of putting himself ahead of his country/countrymen.

This Democratic administration's first annual deficit was more than all previous deficits, Democratic and Republican, COMBINED!

Because in the first place the U.S. Constitution precludes it from being a government industry.

It has not always been an excluse Federal matter to begin with but, rather, it has always been a co-operative matter between the Federal government and private industry. Just one great "Obamacare" expense to the taxpayers is the $5 BILLION allocated specifically to African-Americans to attend BLACK ONLY colleges/universities. Whatever happened to Obama's "post racial" promise?

(in reply to cadenas)
Profile   Post #: 206
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/28/2010 9:08:36 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

If the Social Security Program currently has a balance of 2.5 trillion, as reported in the N.Y. Times, shouldn't that money be considered debt as well?


No. It is an asset.

The obligation to retirees is a liability, not debt.

Borrowing to cover it would be debt.

(in reply to Alphascendant)
Profile   Post #: 207
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/28/2010 9:18:55 AM   
Lorr47


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

Actually, it might have been a shrewd move. By delaying the major parts of the reform until 2014,....



To me, the major parts of the reform are that insurers can no longer deny or drop coverage, which will be immediate.



The "right of an insurer to deny coverage because of a preexisting condition" is important to me but I thought that those provisions did not click in until 2014.  I guess I cancel the amputation and read again.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 208
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/28/2010 10:08:37 AM   
tazzygirl


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I wish to point out the following....

quote:

Barack Obama (born 1961), 44th president of the United States, was born in Honolulu, Hawaii to a U.S. citizen mother and a British subject father from what was then the Kenya Colony of the United Kingdom (which became the independent country of Kenya in 1963). Before and after the 2008 presidential election, arguments were made that he is not a natural born citizen. On June 12, 2008, the Obama presidential campaign launched a website to counter what it described as smears by his opponents, including these challenges to his eligibility.[55] The most prominent issue raised against Obama was the claim made in several lawsuits that he was not actually born in Hawaii. In two other lawsuits, the plaintiffs argued that it was irrelevant whether he was born in Hawaii,[56] but argued instead that he was nevertheless not a natural born citizen because his citizenship status at birth was also governed by the British Nationality Act of 1948.[57] The relevant courts have either denied all applications or declined to render a judgment due to lack of jurisdiction. Some of the cases have been dismissed because of the plaintiff's lack of standing.[25] On July 28, 2009, Hawaii Health Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino issued a statement saying, "I ... have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen,".[58] On July 27, 2009, the U.S. House of Representatives passed H.R. 593, commemorating the 50th anniversary of Hawaii's statehood, including the text, "Whereas the 44th President of the United States, Barack Obama, was born in Hawaii on August 4, 1961." [59] The vote passed 378-0. [60]


The Bill itself

quote:

H. Res. 593

In the House of Representatives, U. S.,

July 27, 2009.

Whereas August 21, 2009, marks the 50th Anniversary of President Dwight D. Eisenhower’s signing of Proclamation 3309, which admitted Hawaii into the Union in compliance with the Hawaii Admission Act, enacted by the United States Congress on March 18, 1959;

Whereas Hawaii is ‘a place like no other, with a people like no other’ and bridges the mainland United States to the Asia-Pacific region;

Whereas the 44th President of the United States, Barack Obama, was born in Hawaii on August 4, 1961;

Whereas Hawaii has contributed to the diversity of Congress in electing--

(1) the first Native Hawaiian to serve in Congress, Prince Jonah Kuhio Kalaniana‘ole;

(2) the first Asian-American to serve in the Senate, Hiram Fong;

(3) the first woman of color to serve in Congress, Patsy T. Mink;

(4) the first Native Hawaiian to serve in the Senate, Daniel Kahikina Akaka; and

(5) the first Japanese-American to serve in the Senate, Daniel Ken Inouye;

Whereas Hawaii is an example to the rest of the world of unity and positive race relations;

Whereas Pearl Harbor is a strategic military base for the U.S. in the Pacific and also a historical site for the Nation, being the location of the December 7, 1941, surprise Japanese aerial attack that thrust the Nation into World War II;

Whereas Hawaii is home to 1/4 of the endangered species in the United States;

Whereas Hawaii has 8 national parks, which preserve volcanoes, complex ecosystems, a Hansen’s disease colony, and other sites of historical and cultural significance;

Whereas Kilauea ranks among the most active volcanoes on Earth;

Whereas President Bush nominated the Papahanaumokuakea Marine National Monument to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization World Heritage Centre for consideration to the World Heritage List;

Whereas Hawaii has produced musical legends ranging from traditional favorites such as Alfred Apaka, Don Ho, and Genoa Keawe, to Hawaii renaissance performers such as Eddie Kamae, Raymond Kane, Gabby Pahinui, Israel Kamakawiwo‘ole, the Brothers Cazimero, and the Beamer Brothers, and continuing on to contemporary stars such as Keali‘i Reichel, Ledward Kaapana, Jake Shimabukuro, and Raiatea Helm;

Whereas Hawaii is culturally rich, as the Hawaiian culture has been protected through Hawaiian language immersion schools, hula competitions such as the Merrie Monarch Festival, canoeing voyages undertaken by vessels like the Hokule‘a, and the continuing historic preservation of Hawaiian traditions;

Whereas the Hawaii Statehood Commission has held a Joint Session of the Hawaii State Legislature in honor of statehood and will be celebrating this milestone with a public discussion and with the arrival of the USS Hawaii; and

Whereas for all of these reasons Hawaii is a truly unique State: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That the House of Representatives recognizes and celebrates the 50th Anniversary of the entry of Hawaii into the Union as the 50th State.


http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=hr111-593

Complain as much as you want, Obama is a citizen and President.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 209
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/29/2010 1:27:42 AM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alphascendant

Sorry, that doesn't work, or there would be no debate on that issue.


The debate is artificial - legally there is no question about his citizenship, even if you really believe he was born in Kenya.

quote:


Anyone born inside the United States *
Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe
Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S. (cadenas: actually, there is no requirement that either parent ever lived in the USA).
Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.


Regardless of birth place, Barack Obama would be a citizen based on the rule I highlighted in brown. John McCain would be a citizen based on the rule I highlighted in red.

By the way, the rules have changed multiple times - in 1934, but also in 1952 and 1980. Both the red and brown rules above were in effect in 1961, when Obama was born.


(in reply to Alphascendant)
Profile   Post #: 210
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/29/2010 1:32:51 AM   
cadenas


Posts: 517
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alphascendant
The Social Security Program stopped taking in more than it is required to pay out a couple of days ago.

That may be true, I'm too lazy right now to research it so I'll take your word for it.

But the funds that were paid in by taxpayers were meant to be held in trust, not borrowed from to pay for other government expenses.


Can you explain what, exactly "held in trust" means? What should the Social Security Administration do with the funds they have been entrusted with?


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 211
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/29/2010 6:48:47 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alphascendant

Sorry, that doesn't work, or there would be no debate on that issue.

Anyone born inside the United States *
Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe
Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.


snopes.com: Is Barack Obama a natural-born citizen of the U.S.?



(in reply to Alphascendant)
Profile   Post #: 212
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/29/2010 7:04:25 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alphascendant
The Social Security Program stopped taking in more than it is required to pay out a couple of days ago.

That may be true, I'm too lazy right now to research it so I'll take your word for it.

But the funds that were paid in by taxpayers were meant to be held in trust, not borrowed from to pay for other government expenses.


Can you explain what, exactly "held in trust" means? What should the Social Security Administration do with the funds they have been entrusted with?


I'm not sure what you want me to explain.

The money Social Security takes in is held in trust funds but is not separated from the federal budget so those funds have been used for other purposes even though the obligation still exists.

(in reply to cadenas)
Profile   Post #: 213
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/29/2010 7:36:35 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
BTW: It doesn't matter where Barack Obama, aka Barry Obama, aka Barry Soetoro was born. The plain and simple fact that his father never was a U.S. Citizen prevents him from being a "natural born citizen" according to four legacy SCOTUS cases and, therefore, from meeting the U.S. Constitution's criteria that only a "natural born citizen" may serve at POTUS. Not to say I expect anything to come of that, just to say that Obama has perpetrated the most outlandish and potentially destructive fraud on the American people in history.

You're a liar. There has never been a SCOTUS ruling on what constitutes a natural born citizen.

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 214
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/29/2010 7:39:33 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

To me, the major parts of the reform are that insurers can no longer deny or drop coverage, which will be immediate.



The "right of an insurer to deny coverage because of a preexisting condition" is important to me but I thought that those provisions did not click in until 2014.  I guess I cancel the amputation and read again.



My understanding is there is a government-funded "high risk" program that takes effect immediately to cover pre-existing conditions.

But this legislation has changed so many times it is hard to keep up.

(in reply to Lorr47)
Profile   Post #: 215
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/29/2010 11:24:10 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
BTW: It doesn't matter where Barack Obama, aka Barry Obama, aka Barry Soetoro was born. The plain and simple fact that his father never was a U.S. Citizen prevents him from being a "natural born citizen" according to four legacy SCOTUS cases and, therefore, from meeting the U.S. Constitution's criteria that only a "natural born citizen" may serve at POTUS. Not to say I expect anything to come of that, just to say that Obama has perpetrated the most outlandish and potentially destructive fraud on the American people in history.

You're a liar. There has never been a SCOTUS ruling on what constitutes a natural born citizen.

Some would argue that in fact they have ruled on this issue in Ngyuyen v. INS. That ruling opened up an entirely different can of worms that will now be probably heard in the Flores-Villar matter, regarding gender discrimination and citizenship...

Never is such an absolute term, kind of like calling somebody a liar. No?

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 216
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/29/2010 11:39:09 AM   
Musicmystery


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From Wiki:

Supreme Court cases relating to citizenship

Although the U.S. Supreme Court has never specifically determined the meaning of "natural born citizen", they have occasionally discussed the term as an obiter dictum in cases concerning who is eligible for citizenship at birth.

Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857): In regard to the "natural born citizen" clause, the dissent states that such citizenship is acquired by place of birth (jus soli), not through blood or lineage (jus sanguinis):

The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language, 'a natural born citizen.' It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.

(Much of the majority opinion in this case was overturned by the 14th Amendment in 1868.)

Elk v. Wilkins, 83 U.S. 36 (1872): The Court denied Elk, a Native American, the right to vote as a US citizen even though he was born on US soil, because he was born on an Indian Reservation. Elk was not born subject to the jurisdiction of the US, because he “owed immediate allegiance to” his tribe, a vassal or quasi-nation, and not to the United States. The Court held Elk was not “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States at birth.

The evident meaning of these last words is, not merely subject in some respect or degree to the jurisdiction of the United States, but completely subject to their political jurisdiction, and owing them direct and immediate allegiance.[21]

This ruling was rendered moot when native Americans were granted citizenship in the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924.

Slaughterhouse Cases, 83 U.S. 36 (1872): The Court discussed the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment:

the phrase 'subject to the jurisdiction thereof' was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign states, born within the United States.

Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1874): In this case decided after the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Court stated (pp. 167–68):

The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens.

United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898): In this case, the majority of the Court held that a child born in U.S. territory to parents who were subjects of the emperor of China and who were not eligible for U.S. citizenship, but who had “a permanent domicile and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the emperor of China” was a U.S. Citizen.

The Court stated that:

The constitution nowhere defines the meaning of these words [citizen and natural born citizen], either by way of inclusion or of exclusion, except in so far as this is done by the affirmative declaration that 'all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States.'[22]

Since there was no definition of "natural born citizen" or "citizen" found in the constitution, the majority adopted the common law of England:

The court ruled:

It thus clearly appears that by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country, and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, and the jurisdiction of the English sovereign; and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject, unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born. III. The same rule was in force in all the English colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the constitution as originally established.

The dissent argued that the meaning of the “subject to the jurisdiction” language found in 14th Amendment was the same as that found in the 1866 Civil Rights Act, which provides: “All persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States.” On the meaning of “natural born citizen,” the dissent also cited the treatise on international law by Emerich de Vattel entitled “The Law of Nations” which may have influenced the drafters of the original constitution:[23] "The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens."[24] The dissenters also noted, arguing that birth on the soil was not sufficient to grant citizenship at birth, that:

it is unreasonable to conclude that 'natural born citizen' applied to everybody born within the geographical tract known as the United States, irrespective of circumstances; and that the children of foreigners, happening to be born to them while passing through the country, whether of royal parentage or not, or whether of the Mongolian, Malay, or other race, were eligible to the presidency, while children of our citizens, born abroad, were not.[22]

Perkins v. Elg, 307 U.S. 325 (1939): The U.S. Supreme Court concluded that Marie Elizabeth Elg, who was born in the United States of Swedish parents naturalized in the United States, had not lost her birthright U.S. citizenship because of her removal during minority to Sweden and was entitled to all the rights and privileges of that U.S. citizenship. In this case, the U.S. Supreme Court affirmed the decree that birthright citizenship and natural born citizenship mean the same thing and declared Elg "to be a natural born citizen of the United States."

Schneider v. Rusk, 377 U.S. 163 (1964): The Court voided a statute that provided that a naturalized citizen should lose his United States citizenship if, following naturalization, he resided continuously for three years in his former homeland.

We start from the premise that the rights of citizenship of the native-born and of the naturalized person are of the same dignity and are coextensive. The only difference drawn by the Constitution is that only the 'natural born' citizen is eligible to be President.

Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815 (1971): Reviews the history of citizenship legislation and of the Fourteenth Amendment's Citizenship Clause.

Standing in eligibility challenges

Several United States District Courts have ruled that private citizens do not have standing to challenge the eligibility of candidates to appear on a presidential election ballot.[25] Alternatively, there is a statutory method by which the eligibility of the President-elect to take office may be challenged in Congress.[26]
Some legal scholars assert that, even if eligibility challenges are nonjusticiable in lower federal courts, and are not undertaken in Congress, there are other avenues for adjudication, such as an action in state court in regard to ballot access.[27]

Presidential candidates whose eligibility was questioned

While every President and Vice President to date (as of 2009) is widely believed either to have been a citizen at the adoption of the Constitution in 1789 or to have been born in the United States, one U.S. President (Chester A. Arthur) and some presidential candidates either were not born or were suspected of not having been born in a U.S. state.[31] In addition, one U.S. Vice President (Albert Gore) was born in Washington, D.C. This does not necessarily mean that they were ineligible, only that there was some controversy (usually minor) about their eligibility, which may have been resolved in favor of eligibility.[32]

Chester A. Arthur (1829–1886), 21st president of the United States, was rumored to have been born in Canada.[33][34] This was never demonstrated by his Democratic opponents, although Arthur Hinman, the attorney in charge of the investigation, raised the objection during his vice-presidential campaign and after the end of his Presidency. Arthur was born in Vermont to a U.S. citizen mother and a father from Ireland, who was eventually naturalized as a U.S. citizen. Despite the fact that his parents took up residence in the United States somewhere between 1822 or 1824,[35] Chester Arthur additionally began to claim between 1870 and 1880[36] that he had been born in 1830, rather than in 1829, which only caused minor confusion and was even used in several publications.[37] Arthur was sworn in as president when President Garfield died after being shot. Since his Irish father William was naturalized 14 years after Chester Arthur's birth,[38] his citizenship status at birth is unclear, because he was born before the 1868 ratification of the 14th Amendment, which provided that any person born on United States territory and being subject to the jurisdiction thereof was considered a born U.S. citizen, and because he also held British citizenship at birth by patrilineal jus sanguinis.[39] Arthur's natural born citizenship status is therefore equally unclear.

George Romney (1907–1995), who ran for the Republican party nomination in 1968, was born in Mexico to U.S. parents. Romney’s grandfather had emigrated to Mexico in 1886 with his three wives and children after Utah outlawed polygamy. Romney's monogamous parents retained their U.S. citizenship and returned to the United States with him in 1912. Romney never received Mexican citizenship, because the country's nationality laws had been restricted to jus-sanguinis statutes due to prevailing politics aimed against American settlers.[40]

Barry Goldwater (1909–1998) was born in Phoenix, in what was then the Arizona Territory of the United States. During his presidential campaign in 1964, there was a minor controversy over Goldwater's having been born in Arizona when it was not yet a state.[33]

Lowell Weicker (born 1931), the former Connecticut Senator, Representative, and Governor, entered the race for the Republican party nomination of 1980 but dropped out before voting in the primaries began. He was born in Paris, France to parents who were U.S. citizens. His father was an executive for E. R. Squibb & Sons and his mother was the Indian-born daughter of a British general.[41]

Róger Calero (born 1969) was born in Nicaragua and ran as the Socialist Worker's Party presidential candidate in 2004 and 2008. In 2008, Calero appeared on the ballot in Delaware, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York and Vermont.[42]

John McCain (born 1936), who ran for the Republican party nomination in 2000 and was the Republican nominee in 2008, was born of two U.S. citizen parents at the naval hospital at the Coco Solo submarine base in the Panama Canal Zone.[43] This is confirmed by a brief birth announcement in a local newspaper, The Panama American, which stated that the birth had taken place at "the Submarine Base Hospital." [44][45] The former unincorporated territory of the Panama Canal Zone and its related military facilities were not regarded as United States territory at the time,[46] but 8 U.S.C. § 1403, which became law in 1937, retroactively conferred citizenship on individuals born within the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904, and on individuals born in the Republic of Panama on or after that date who had at least one U.S. citizen parent employed by the U.S. government or the Panama Railway Company; 8 U.S.C. § 1403 was cited in Judge Alsup's 2008 ruling, described below. A paper by former Solicitor General Ted Olson and Harvard Law Professor Laurence H. Tribe published in March 2008 opined that McCain was eligible for the Presidency.[47] In April 2008 the U.S. Senate approved a non-binding resolution recognizing McCain's status as a natural born citizen.[48] In September 2008 U.S. District Judge William Alsup stated obiter in his ruling that it is "highly probable" that McCain is a natural born citizen from birth by virtue of 8 U.S.C. § 1401, although he acknowledged the alternative possibility that McCain became a natural born citizen retroactively, by way of 8 U.S.C. § 1403.[49] These views have been criticized by Gabriel J. Chin, Professor of Law at the University of Arizona, who argues that McCain was at birth a citizen of Panama and was only retroactively declared a born citizen under 8 U.S.C. § 1403, because at the time of his birth and with regard to the Canal Zone the Supreme Court's Insular Cases overruled the Naturalization Act of 1795, which would otherwise have declared McCain a U.S. citizen immediately at birth.[50] The US Foreign Affairs Manual states that children born in the Panama Canal Zone at certain times became U.S. nationals without citizenship.[51] It also states in general that "it has never been determined definitively by a court whether a person who acquired U.S. citizenship by birth abroad to U.S. citizens is a natural born citizen […]".[52] In Rogers v. Bellei the Supreme Court only ruled that "children born abroad of Americans are not citizens within the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment", and didn't elaborate on the natural born status.[53][54]

Barack Obama (born 1961), 44th president of the United States, was born in Honolulu, Hawaii to a U.S. citizen mother and a British subject father from what was then the Kenya Colony of the United Kingdom (which became the independent country of Kenya in 1963). Before and after the 2008 presidential election, arguments were made that he is not a natural born citizen. On June 12, 2008, the Obama presidential campaign launched a website to counter what it described as smears by his opponents, including these challenges to his eligibility.[55] The most prominent issue raised against Obama was the claim made in several lawsuits that he was not actually born in Hawaii. In two other lawsuits, the plaintiffs argued that it was irrelevant whether he was born in Hawaii,[56] but argued instead that he was nevertheless not a natural born citizen because his citizenship status at birth was also governed by the British Nationality Act of 1948.[57] The relevant courts have either denied all applications or declined to render a judgment due to lack of jurisdiction. Some of the cases have been dismissed because of the plaintiff's lack of standing.[25] On July 28, 2009, Hawaii Health Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino issued a statement saying, "I ... have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen,".[58] On July 27, 2009, the U.S. House of Representatives passed H.R. 593, commemorating the 50th anniversary of Hawaii's statehood, including the text, "Whereas the 44th President of the United States, Barack Obama, was born in Hawaii on August 4, 1961." [59] The vote passed 378-0. [60]

Proposed constitutional amendments

More than two dozen proposed constitutional amendments have been introduced in Congress to relax the restriction.[61]

Two of the more well known were introduced by Representative Jonathan Bingham in 1974, to allow for Secretary of State Henry Kissinger to become eligible,[62] and the Equal Opportunity to Govern Amendment by Senator Orrin Hatch in 2003, to allow eligibility for Governor of California Arnold Schwarzenegger.[61] The Bingham amendment would have also made clear the eligibility of those born abroad to U.S. parents,[62] while the Hatch one would have allowed those who have been naturalized citizens for twenty years to be eligible.[61]




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/29/2010 11:41:42 AM >

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 217
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/29/2010 3:08:08 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
BTW: It doesn't matter where Barack Obama, aka Barry Obama, aka Barry Soetoro was born. The plain and simple fact that his father never was a U.S. Citizen prevents him from being a "natural born citizen" according to four legacy SCOTUS cases and, therefore, from meeting the U.S. Constitution's criteria that only a "natural born citizen" may serve at POTUS. Not to say I expect anything to come of that, just to say that Obama has perpetrated the most outlandish and potentially destructive fraud on the American people in history.

You're a liar. There has never been a SCOTUS ruling on what constitutes a natural born citizen.

Some would argue that in fact they have ruled on this issue in Ngyuyen v. INS. That ruling opened up an entirely different can of worms that will now be probably heard in the Flores-Villar matter, regarding gender discrimination and citizenship...

Never is such an absolute term, kind of like calling somebody a liar. No?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-2071.ZS.html

Funny how a case that suipposedly has some bearing on what constitutes a natural born citizen never once includes the word "natural." There is nothing in the ruling that relates to what makes one a natural born citizen as it relates to eligibility for the Office of President.

So yes, Racerjim still lied, he claimed 4 cases and he further claimed that teh rulings were about foreign fathers. You, once again, made the stupid decision to post an erroneous claim when you know I read all such claims.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 218
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/29/2010 3:54:00 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
BTW: It doesn't matter where Barack Obama, aka Barry Obama, aka Barry Soetoro was born. The plain and simple fact that his father never was a U.S. Citizen prevents him from being a "natural born citizen" according to four legacy SCOTUS cases and, therefore, from meeting the U.S. Constitution's criteria that only a "natural born citizen" may serve at POTUS. Not to say I expect anything to come of that, just to say that Obama has perpetrated the most outlandish and potentially destructive fraud on the American people in history.

You're a liar. There has never been a SCOTUS ruling on what constitutes a natural born citizen.

Some would argue that in fact they have ruled on this issue in Ngyuyen v. INS. That ruling opened up an entirely different can of worms that will now be probably heard in the Flores-Villar matter, regarding gender discrimination and citizenship...

Never is such an absolute term, kind of like calling somebody a liar. No?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-2071.ZS.html

Funny how a case that suipposedly has some bearing on what constitutes a natural born citizen never once includes the word "natural." There is nothing in the ruling that relates to what makes one a natural born citizen as it relates to eligibility for the Office of President.

So yes, Racerjim still lied, he claimed 4 cases and he further claimed that teh rulings were about foreign fathers. You, once again, made the stupid decision to post an erroneous claim when you know I read all such claims.

Actually the case I cited does apply to whether somebody is a natural born citizen, as the Ngyuyen was born on foreign soil to a non-citizen mother and a citizen father. While technically true that the SCOTUS hasn't ruled on that exact wording, there can be no doubt as to the meaning of natural born citizen being somebody that is a citizen as a result of conditions surrounding their birth (born here, parent (s) are citizens). For you to suggest that they have NEVER ruled on the subject would be by using your application of standards a LIE.

Oh and as Tim pointed out in his post just a couple back...
quote:


The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language "a natural-born citizen." It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in the history of this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred Citizenship to the place of birth. At the Declaration of Independence, and ever since, the received general doctrine has been, in conformity with the common law, that free persons born within either of the colonies, were the subjects of the King; that by the Declaration of independence, and the consequent acquisition of sovereignty by the several States, all such persons ceased to be subjects, and became citizens of the several States, [...] .
The Constitution having recognized that persons born within the several States are citizens of the United States, one of four things must be true:
First. That the constitution itself has described what native-born persons shall or shall not be citizens of such State, and thereby be citizens of the United States; or,
Second:. That it has empowered Congress to do so; or,
Third. That all free persons, born within the several States, are citizens of the United States; or,
Fourth. That it is left to each State to determine what free persons, born within its limits, shall be citizens of such State, and thereby be citizens of the United States.
If there is such a thing as Citizenship of the United States acquired by birth within the States, which the Constitution expressly recognizes, and no one denies, then those four alternatives embrace the entire subject, and it only remains to select that one which is true.



Further, just some simple research might lead to the knowledge that the SCOTUS has ruled many times on citizenship and how it is aquired, and that the only reason the specific words "natural born citizen haven't been" ruled on is because of what the court itself states in US v Wong Kim Ark "The constitution nowhere defines the meaning of these words [citizen and natural born citizen], either by way of inclusion or of exclusion, except in so far as this is done by the affirmative declaration that 'all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States"

Finally, I am defintely not taking racerjim's position, I was merely commenting on your use of NEVER, since you like to make sure everybody (or at least I) am perfectly clear and concise with the exact words we choose or be branded as liars. I figured you would want to lead by example. Guess I was wrong.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Thanks a whole lot, Republicans. - 3/30/2010 4:29:34 AM   
cadenas


Posts: 517
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alphascendant
The Social Security Program stopped taking in more than it is required to pay out a couple of days ago.

That may be true, I'm too lazy right now to research it so I'll take your word for it.

But the funds that were paid in by taxpayers were meant to be held in trust, not borrowed from to pay for other government expenses.


Can you explain what, exactly "held in trust" means? What should the Social Security Administration do with the funds they have been entrusted with?

I'm not sure what you want me to explain.

The money Social Security takes in is held in trust funds but is not separated from the federal budget so those funds have been used for other purposes even though the obligation still exists.

What I am asking, quite simply, is how Social Security is supposed to store the money until it is needed? Are they supposed to take cash and lock it into a vault? If not, what other way of keeping the funds do you propose?


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 220
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