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RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/24/2010 5:27:19 PM

cloudboy

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Don't worry, because the US is not a terrorist police state -- all those people will not need to be tracked down, processed and deported. So all that money will not be spent.

On the down side, you will have to continue putting up with all the labor they contribute to the US economy, and the irritating habit those hard workers have of sending their money back home to help feed and support their families -- which helps contribute direct -- non governmental controlled foreign aid to the people who most need it.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 21

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/24/2010 5:27:30 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Fast Reply -

So who benefits from the hiring of illegal workers in this country? Do employers? Do consumers?
Does the tax base in a community? Does the state or federal government?

What is more cost effective, amnesty or deportation?

Employers and consumers both benefit, workers on the other hand are harmed.

The tax base would likely go up.

I don't believe that cost should be the primary decision in this. I mean, government revenue would fucking skyrocket if we let every single inmate out of prison today...I don't see anyone arguing "it's cheaper therefore better" for that one.

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 22

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/24/2010 8:40:38 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Don't worry, because the US is not a terrorist police state -- all those people will not need to be tracked down, processed and deported. So all that money will not be spent.

On the down side, you will have to continue putting up with all the labor they contribute to the US economy, and the irritating habit those hard workers have of sending their money back home to help feed and support their families -- which helps contribute direct -- non governmental controlled foreign aid to the people who most need it.

your attempt at being snarky fell short of your intended target. that is not what i said in my op, or even implied. perhaps reading it again... naaaa... never mind. you read into it what you wanted. half the crew i work with are illegals... and they work damn hard. so go preach to another choir.

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(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 23

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/24/2010 9:29:16 PM

cloudboy

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Joined: 12/14/2005
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quote:

your attempt at being snarky fell short of your intended target. that is not what i said in my op, or even implied. perhaps reading it again... naaaa... never mind. you read into it what you wanted. half the crew i work with are illegals... and they work damn hard. so go preach to another choir.

I think the report you cited is inflammatory material aimed at stirring up a particular audience. "If we had to do X then the consequences would be Y," with of course illegals as the punching-bag variable. We could look at many other doomsday scenarios too, like China cutting off its tap of loans, the boomers entering retirement age, etc.

So, in deference to you -- let me say my comments are directed at the report and anyone who would waive it around to stir up knee-jerk immigration resentments.

Your point that the high number of illegals is connects directly to the limited options they have is entirely correct.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 24

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/24/2010 11:54:48 PM

Vendaval

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How about all the states that have released inmates early due to budget shortfalls during the recession? I quick query of "early release of prisoners + budget shortfalls" shows "Results 1 - 10 of about 30,900 for early release of prisoners + budget shortfalls."

On page 1 the states of California, Florida, Illinois, Tennessee, South Carolina and Kentucky are listed along with LA County.

So yes, budget concerns are definitely part of the equation regarding deportation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Fast Reply -

So who benefits from the hiring of illegal workers in this country? Do employers? Do consumers?
Does the tax base in a community? Does the state or federal government?

What is more cost effective, amnesty or deportation?

Employers and consumers both benefit, workers on the other hand are harmed.

The tax base would likely go up.

I don't believe that cost should be the primary decision in this. I mean, government revenue would fucking skyrocket if we let every single inmate out of prison today...I don't see anyone arguing "it's cheaper therefore better" for that one.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 25

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/25/2010 1:05:04 AM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

Sure cost is a factor but it shouldn't be the only one. If this is a war worth fighting it's a war worth paying for.

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 26

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/25/2010 1:37:03 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Sure cost is a factor but it shouldn't be the only one. If this is a war worth fighting it's a war worth paying for.

Yeah, and it costs probably in the tens of billions of dollars to go after and imprison violent criminals each year. Does that mean we should stop going after violent criminals?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 27

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/25/2010 1:45:57 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

your attempt at being snarky fell short of your intended target. that is not what i said in my op, or even implied. perhaps reading it again... naaaa... never mind. you read into it what you wanted. half the crew i work with are illegals... and they work damn hard. so go preach to another choir.

I think the report you cited is inflammatory material aimed at stirring up a particular audience. "If we had to do X then the consequences would be Y," with of course illegals as the punching-bag variable. We could look at many other doomsday scenarios too, like China cutting off its tap of loans, the boomers entering retirement age, etc.

So, in deference to you -- let me say my comments are directed at the report and anyone who would waive it around to stir up knee-jerk immigration resentments.

Your point that the high number of illegals is connects directly to the limited options they have is entirely correct.

you can think what you will.. doesnt make you right. 200 billion to try and round up every illegal.. and 85 billion in paperwork... a tad bit.. how about we say... stupid! the article points to the frivolity of raising that much money, then wasting it on something this asinine!

now, allow mt to go on your record book to say that all illegals should have to go through the legalization process. sorry, its there for a reason, deal with it.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 28

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/25/2010 2:20:41 AM

Vendaval

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Joined: 1/15/2005
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"Should" is not equal to the financial reality all over the U.S. right now. Would you vote to increase taxes to pay for the deportation of illegal immigrants?

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Sure cost is a factor but it shouldn't be the only one. If this is a war worth fighting it's a war worth paying for.

Yeah, and it costs probably in the tens of billions of dollars to go after and imprison violent criminals each year. Does that mean we should stop going after violent criminals?

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 29

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/25/2010 6:27:21 AM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
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I am an immigration lawyer by trade. The majority of my job is telling potential clients, "sorry there is nothing I can do for you."

As for legal immigration, the government hiked fees a few years ago -- and the fees for just a straightforward marriage based green card are $1,3650.00. Non immigrant work visas can be even more expensive. As a result, the USCIS is pretty much self funding.

Thanks for adding more details about the article. I jumped to the wrong conclusion. I can be a bit over sensitive in this area.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 3/25/2010 6:30:01 AM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 30

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/25/2010 8:28:14 AM

cuckoldmepls

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Joined: 11/29/2007
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You main flaw in reasoning is that you believe we intend to round them all up and deport them as quickly as possible. You've been deceived by the politically correct establishment who claims we only have two alternatives, amnesty or round them all up and deport them.

That couldn't be further from the truth. All the large organizations support the everify system which requires employers to verify they are legal American citzens before hiring them. That's just common sense. No organization is demanding mass deportations. They will self deport as time goes by when they realize they can no longer take a good paying job away from an American and they will never receive citizenship. Occasionally law enforcement would come in contact with them, and obviously they would receive a plane ticket home.

The official black unemployment rate is 16%. Unofficially it's closer to 20%. We could cut the unemployment rate in half simply by enforcing our immigration laws. We also have temporary guest worker programs which allows any outlaw grower to come clean and bring in temporary workers legally. The only condition is they must go back home at the end of the season. So there's really no excuse for not enforcing our immigration laws.

As far as the theory that they would benefit our country by legalizing them, it has already been proven that they cost us far more in taxpayer benefits, and expanded highway construction than a low income worker could ever contribute. The reason people hire them is to undercut the competition, and if they legalized them and raised their salaries, then there would be no benefit to not hiring Americans, and we still wouldn't raise any more taxes than we would if Americans were doing the job.

By the way, look up Operation Wetback. We've had presidents in the past who did have the backbone to protect American jobs.

http://babelishere.webs.com
http://apathetic-usa.com

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 31

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/25/2010 8:40:04 AM

cuckoldmepls

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Another good reason to vote for secure border candidates is that we are currently allowing 20% of the population to control our immigration policies. 10% Hispanics, and 10% Americans are either open border lunatics or Aztland Reconquista finatics.

Half the Hispanics agree with us, but they are unable to speak out for fear of offending friends and family members. I know because I've been at rallies where Hispanics have been there as well. Some even took the podium. The fact of the matter is, that the first amnesty resulted in 10 to 15 million more illegal aliens, so it was obviously a mistake. Another amnesty would be even more disastrous, since once you receive amnesty you are then allowed to sponsored relatives through chain mirgration. That will bring another 30 million over the next decade. Then when you count all the babies they will have, you are easily looking at 50 million more people on the government dole, including free health care.

Which is another good reason for liberals to join us. If you want Obama's legacy on health care to be successful, it won't be with 50 milllion more people not paying for it. Our current health care system is already being taxed to the limit. Parkland hospital in Dallas filed a class action lawsuit against mexico. 50 million more will guarantee failure of the new health care system, not to mention moving closer to losing political control to Latin America.

See that's another deception most people are not aware of. It's not just Mexico that is flooding in here. It is all of Latin America. I know this to be a fact, since the contractor who put on my roof admitted his roofers were from Guatemala. Now, obviously you are going to say there you go, even you have to use Illegal Alien help. Nonsense. Blacks could easily work 2 days a week to put on a roof and make at least $500 a week. There's no excuse for roofing contractors to hire Illegals.

http://babelishere.webs.com/health.html
http://apathetic-usa.com

(in reply to cuckoldmepls)

Post #: 32

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/25/2010 8:48:51 AM

Lucienne

Posts: 1175
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls

Another good reason to vote for secure border candidates is that we are currently allowing 20% of the population to control our immigration policies. 10% Hispanics, and 10% Americans are either open border lunatics or Aztland Reconquista finatics.

I'm getting the distinct impression that your objection to current immigration trends is based on a fear that the US will soon cease to be a white majority country.

(in reply to cuckoldmepls)

Post #: 33

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/25/2010 9:02:30 AM

Marc2b

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There are two questions that need to be answered when it comes to illegal immigration:

How do we stop illegal immigration?

What do we do about the illegal immigrants that are already here?

As to the first question… well, we can’t completely stop illegal immigration but we can reduce it to a trickle of what it is now. We just have to be willing to spend the money to secure the border with fences, electronic surveillance and the needed number of border agents. It isn’t just a matter of jobs and how much they pay (although I certainly do support the enforcement of laws against knowingly hiring illegal aliens) but a simple matter of sovereignty. We are a sovereign nation. We have the right to check people out before we let them into the country. To put it bluntly: we have more than enough domestically produced assholes, we don’t need to import them.

As to the second question, amnesty is the only logical route to go. Last I heard there is upward of twenty million illegals in the U.S. To round them all up and deport them all would be unworkable because:

The cost would be prohibitive.

We would be removing a large chunk from our economy. Things are shity enough right now; we don’t need to add to it.

Trying to forcibly move that many people will result in mass protests, riots and perhaps worse. A lot of people could be hurt, maybe even killed.

Many, if not most, of the illegal aliens (despite the illegality of their coming here in the first place) are decent folk who add to the economy and culture of the United States. Do we really want to treat them so badly?

Bad PR: We will look like racist asshole thugs.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 34

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/25/2010 12:08:13 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

You know, President Obama would be very well served by hiring James Carville to work in the White House and yell at him everyday; "IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID!"

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Post #: 35

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/25/2010 1:16:36 PM

Marc2b

Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

You know, President Obama would be very well served by hiring James Carville to work in the White House and yell at him everyday; "IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID!"

Yes he would.

You know, in the last couple of days just talking to friends and acquaintances, I’ve noticed a lot of people (people who by no stretch of the imagination could be called conservative) are really scared of this health care legislation and they are pissed at the Dems for shoving it through. I don’t normally like to make political predictions (so much can change on such short notice) but I strongly suspect that we will have a Republican Congress after the November elections (at the very least, a Republican Senate). If so, then the question becomes: will President Obama be smart like Clinton (whatever faults the man may have had, he was the consummate politician) and move to the center, or will he continue to push a liberal agenda and end up going down in flames in 2012?

As much as I detest all this government expansion bullshit I am not sure that will be a good thing. If the Republicans can’t field a good candidate we might end up with President Palin and that would be an even worst disaster that Obama. In fact, the only good thing I could see in a Palin election would be the fun in watching certain posters here on CM go into apocalyptic meltdown. Poor Panda’s head would explode, Kittin would start walking back to France, ocean or no, and there would be several heart attacks.

Brain on the other hand would be in his glory as he would be able to post three times as many Republicans/Conservatives are evil scum threads as he usually does.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 3/25/2010 1:17:32 PM >

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 36

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/25/2010 2:06:51 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Marc, I was listening to The Howie Carr Show in Boston (WRKO-680) earlier and some of the callers were talking about establishing "sanctuary cities" against this new healthcare bill!
One caller said that the govt. doesn't enforce the laws against illegal aliens so "screw them!"
See what happens when we have laws that aren't enforced?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 37

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/25/2010 2:51:59 PM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

Of course, it all went wrong when they started letting Italians, Poles and Irish into the US.

Personally I blame the Jews.

E

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Post #: 38

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/25/2010 3:42:08 PM

rfd1

Posts: 53
Joined: 2/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Personally I blame the Jews.

Brandeis University's Earl Raab

quote:

"The Census Bureau has just reported that about half of the American population will soon be non-white or non-European. And they will all be American citizens. We have tipped beyond the point where a Nazi-Aryan party will be able to prevail in this country. We have been nourishing the American climate of opposition to bigotry for about half a century. That climate has not yet been perfected, but the heterogeneous nature of our population tends to make it irreversible -- and makes our constitutional constraints against bigotry more practical than ever. (Earl Raab, Jewish Bulletin, February 19, 1993, p. 23)

"It was only after World War II that immigration law was drastically changed ... In one of the first pieces of evidence of its political coming-of-age, the Jewish community had a leadership role in effecting those changes." (Earl Raab, Jewish Bulletin, July 23, 1993, p. 17)

quote:

Miriam Faine, an editorial committee member of the Australian Jewish Democrat:: "The strengthening of multicultural or diverse Australia is also our most effective insurance policy against anti-Semitism. The day Australia has a Chinese Australian Governor General I would feel more confident of my freedom to live as a Jewish Australian."

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 39

RE: Cost of immigration enforcement and deportation. - 3/25/2010 3:52:54 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
As to the second question, amnesty is the only logical route to go. Last I heard there is upward of twenty million illegals in the U.S. To round them all up and deport them all would be unworkable because:

The cost would be prohibitive.

Only if you don't consider it to be worth it, and like someone else said, rather than trying to get them all at once, just deport them as found. I'm all for putting a minimum jail term too, a year in jail before deportation will make it harder for the people who come right back, and someone coming here primarily to send money home to their family as a primary breadwinner might hesitate before risking a year without any wages at all.

quote:

We would be removing a large chunk from our economy. Things are shity enough right now; we don’t need to add to it.

Illegal immigrants working here often send a large portion of their pay back home to their home country. Americans would keep it in our economy.

quote:

Trying to forcibly move that many people will result in mass protests, riots and perhaps worse. A lot of people could be hurt, maybe even killed.

Again, only if you do it all at once, and if fear of rioting would prevent a government from taking right action, it's no wonder that we're getting trampled on by people who think it's their right to work illegally in the US.

quote:

Many, if not most, of the illegal aliens (despite the illegality of their coming here in the first place) are decent folk who add to the economy and culture of the United States. Do we really want to treat them so badly?

In comparison to US citizens, illegal aliens detract from the economy, because they take capital out of the US and transfer it to another nation.

As far as culture goes, let's just say I believe English should be the national language of the US. My immigrant ancestors all learned English very quickly and it's no harder to learn it from German or Czech than it is to learn it from Spanish. Living in a country with total immersion it should not take more than a few years to have a workable knowledge of the language.

And as far as treating them badly...that depends on what we're doing. Would you say any other criminal is being treated badly if sent to jail? And if they're not sent to jail, and just sent to their country of origin, then we really haven't done anything to them, we've just put them right back where they started.

quote:

Bad PR: We will look like racist asshole thugs.

Only if we offer amnesty to white illegals but not to non-white illegals. There are plenty of white illegal immigrants, mostly from Eastern Europe.

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 40

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