RE: Name your penalty!

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Thadius -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:15:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl The problem isnt just their office. Hospitals must also be paid. How many of them are willing to stop accepting insurance? Trust me, im not happy with this bill either, but i do view it as a beginning. Im all reality, the point of this thread was to make people actually think about the alternatives. The alternative to taxing would be denial of care... something no one here even wanted to discuss. Facts are simple. This is pointing out how many are working, full time, below the poverty level. Its pointing out the humanity in all of us. No one, besides me, even suggested denial of care. Im surprised no one has taken into consideration the fines and taxes against employers and insurance companies.. not that there will be alot. As I pointed out in another post, there are probably a bunch that will be lining up to stop taking at least the 2 bigger ones Medicare and Medicaid. The Mayo in Arizona has announced it will not longer accept them. What that leaves us with is why are these hospitals and pharmacies dropping these patients? Mostly because of the cost of the red tape and the mandated payouts. So we are going to have to do something to make those patients desirable again. See the circle that we get into? Also there are no price controls in place to stop insurance companies from charging what they need to cover the increased risk that they will be assuming because of there no longer being caps on coverage and no longer being able to turn away those with pre-existing conditions. Around and around we go making it more and more expensive for everybody. Oops went off on a tangent there.... Would you consider me crazy if i told you i expect that circle? Am i the only one seeing this as a way to force insurance companies to learn to compete competitively or pack up their insurance forms and go home, allowing Uncle Sam to step in and take over? The only part I would call you crazy about is figuring this is going to hurt the private insurance companies. They now have a mandated customer base. Albeit some of us are going to refuse to comply. They will get their money from those that require the coverage because of medical need, while more and more hospitals will be rejecting Medicare and Medicaid because of the paperwork (the staff to handle the paperwork) and the reduced and late payments from the Govt. All things considered the folks that are going to be hurt by that circle are the people, not the companies. How long do you think it will be before there is a majority big enough to pass a public option? Which is why some of us argued to take this step by step and only do that which could be agreed by a consensus of liberal and conservatives would be in the best interest of "we the people".

slvemike4u -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:19:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I highly doubt someone making 15k a year is going to take 2 weeks vacation. Someone in that income bracket will likely only pay 4% of their income...around $46 per month or ~$11 a week. Though I think for someone making THAT little money it would be less about "not going out to dinner" and more about "replacing peanut butter with ramen noodles." Regardless, it's their money to do what they want with. If it's government mandated just make it a part of taxes and have the government give the tax money to the insurers, a lot more honest that way than mandating that someone buy something from a private company out of pocket. Makes you wonder why they didnt. I think i offered up that answer. Exactly tazzy,this is just a first step in a journey that many would rather we not take.The obvious destination is single payer...given the labeling of that as "socialism", baby steps to get there is/was the only option available. It took what a 100 plus years to get any reform at all( if you start the clock at Teddy,if you prefer starting it at Harry call it 70 years...lol)figure 15-25 to complete the trip.

Silence8 -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:20:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: That's not at all what's happening. The insurance companies practically WROTE this bill; that's common knowledge. Hmmm... Insurance companies spent billions fighting something they wrote... nope.. not seeing it. You kidding me? EVERYONE KNOWS THAT. I'm quoting specifically Juan Gonzales (sp?), but a number of articles have detailed this point. Not to mention secondary evidence, with whom the president is meeting (and for how long), who was invited into what subcommittee meeting, etc. They didn't spend billions fighting something they wrote; they spent billions fighting FOR something they wrote. You're being intentionally difficult. You want to see roses where there's only trash. The first step toward real change is accepting that it hasn't occurred yet.

Silence8 -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:22:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Seems while I was away Ven adressed Elisabella's post( in better and more comprehensive fasion then I would be capable of doing) so before I go back to packing allow me to say ...Thanks Merc, and I hope it goes without saying the hopes for the weekend is reciprocal [:)]. PA the folks you descired are either a) off the grid and therefor have no need to fear this legislation and b) no one on 10k a year is paying Federal,State or local tax.....period. I think your 'b' is incorrect. Well seeing as I obviously beleive my "b"to be correct(or else I wouldn't have written it)it would seem you would need to show me my error.Care to do that? When I was in college, I didn't make 10k and still had to pay taxes. There.

slvemike4u -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:24:17 PM)
A "consensus of liberal and conservatives" would,in actuality be in the best interest of those who prefer no action take place. Such a consensus is not possible and never will be.....hell getting those two polar opposites to agree that a thing is actually broke is tough enough....do you really expect they could agree on how to fix the thing.

Silence8 -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:25:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Nor are you in the mood to read the bill. Lots of power in being informed. Its hard to debate something that not everyone has read. lol... Yeah, but Tazzy... that would require wading through pages and pages of "bullshit" (to use Silence's own word) that he can't understand and he wouldn't have time left to look at his picture books. [;)] You're an idiot. And there are no pictures in Das Kapital.

Elisabella -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:27:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Well seeing as I obviously beleive my "b"to be correct(or else I wouldn't have written it)it would seem you would need to show me my error.Care to do that? $5700 deduction + $3650 exemption = $9350 Which means that an individual making 10k would have $650 worth of taxable income, taxed at 10%, meaning he would pay $65 in federal income tax. And I swear to God if you say anything even resembling "yeah I might have said they pay no tax but they pay little tax so I'm close enough" I will scream in rage. Explanation is below: An individual pays tax at a given bracket only for each dollar within that bracket's range. For example, a single taxpayer who earned $10,000 in 2009 would be taxed 10% of each dollar earned from the 1st dollar to the 8,350th dollar (10% × $8,350 = $835.00), then 15% of each dollar earned from the 8,351th dollar to the 10,000th dollar (15% × $1,650 = $247.50), for a total of $1,082.50. Notice this amount ($1,082.50) is lower than if the individual had been taxed at 15% on the full $10,000 (for a tax of $1,500). This is because the individual's marginal rate (the percentage tax on the last dollar earned, here 15%) has no effect on the income taxed at a lower bracket (here the first $8,350 of income taxed at 10%). This ensures that every rise in a person's pre-tax salary results in an increase of his after-tax salary. However, taxpayers are not taxed on every dollar they make. For 2009, single and married filing separate taxpayers are allowed a standard deduction of $5,700. Married filing jointly and surviving widow(er)s are allowed $11,340 and head of household taxpayers are allowed $8,350. Taxpayers over 65 or blind are given an additional $1,100 standard deduction ($2,200 if over 65 and blind). A taxpayer may choose to take the standard deduction or they may itemize their deductions if the amount of itemized deductions is greater than the standard deduction. Taxpayers are also allowed a personal exemption depending on their filing status. The personal exemption amount in 2009 is $3,650 per person.

TreasureKY -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:28:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Am i the only one seeing this as a way to force insurance companies to learn to compete competitively or pack up their insurance forms and go home, allowing Uncle Sam to step in and take over? Insurance companies are going to be forced to compete. Businesses aren't going to be able to afford to pay the penalties for offering policies that exceed the mandated amounts. The problem is, I can't see the smaller insurance companies being able to compete with the larger ones... and the larger ones aren't going to like the payouts they are going to have to make. sighs Honestly, I don't know what is going to happen but I see a huge clusterfuck on the horizon.

tazzygirl -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:28:35 PM)
The only part I would call you crazy about is figuring this is going to hurt the private insurance companies. They now have a mandated customer base. Albeit some of us are going to refuse to comply. They will get their money from those that require the coverage because of medical need, while more and more hospitals will be rejecting Medicare and Medicaid because of the paperwork (the staff to handle the paperwork) and the reduced and late payments from the Govt. All things considered the folks that are going to be hurt by that circle are the people, not the companies. They have a mandated customer base... in 2014. The policies they will have to start writing under the exchange wont be the ones they offer now. They will be considered sub-standard and will have to up the benefits just to compete for a wide small business base. As more and more refuse to accept Medicare and Medicaid, the turn around time on claims will be improving. The pool of coverage just increased with the change of law to 26 for children. Wonder why Tricare and Medicare are not part of that change.... these are the risk seekers, with little pre-existing conditions.. it may cause a hit to the insurance companies pockets... it may not. time will tell about that. And i envision alot of people not purchasing insurance the first year... maybe even the second year... so now we are pushing 2016. 6 years... of complaints... or people demanding more... of corporations having to comply with a government agency making their rules now. Will be an interesting 6 years.

tazzygirl -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:33:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Nor are you in the mood to read the bill. Lots of power in being informed. Its hard to debate something that not everyone has read. lol... Yeah, but Tazzy... that would require wading through pages and pages of "bullshit" (to use Silence's own word) that he can't understand and he wouldn't have time left to look at his picture books. [;)] You're an idiot. And there are no pictures in Das Kapital. Im sorry. Did i offend you somehow? Calling someone.. anyone.. an idiot because they dont agree with you, especially when you have said the same thing yourself, isnt the exact sing of intelligence.

Thadius -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:33:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u A "consensus of liberal and conservatives" would,in actuality be in the best interest of those who prefer no action take place. Such a consensus is not possible and never will be.....hell getting those two polar opposites to agree that a thing is actually broke is tough enough....do you really expect they could agree on how to fix the thing. Hmmm. I think we both agree that all children should have access to medical care and that it may be possible for the taxpayers to cover some cost for the less fortunate. I think we both can agree that people should not be denied coverage for pre-existing conditions especially children. I think we both agree that the donut hole in the prescription coverage for Medicare and Medicaid recipients needed to be filled. I think we both can agree that people should be able to keep their coverage if they change or lose their jobs. I am sure there are many other areas that we can agree upon, and guess what that wasn't very hard to do was it? Then again, if you ideology prevents you from agreeing with me on these issues perhaps a consensus is not possible. P.S. I will let ya go on that trap you set for yourself involving civil disobedience. [;)]

slvemike4u -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:34:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Seems while I was away Ven adressed Elisabella's post( in better and more comprehensive fasion then I would be capable of doing) so before I go back to packing allow me to say ...Thanks Merc, and I hope it goes without saying the hopes for the weekend is reciprocal [:)]. PA the folks you descired are either a) off the grid and therefor have no need to fear this legislation and b) no one on 10k a year is paying Federal,State or local tax.....period. I think your 'b' is incorrect. Well seeing as I obviously beleive my "b"to be correct(or else I wouldn't have written it)it would seem you would need to show me my error.Care to do that? When I was in college, I didn't make 10k and still had to pay taxes. There. Sorry but I find it difficult to beleive that someone who actually attended college(wondering how that worked out? Evidence would suggest you wasted your time)thinks anything contained within that post could be characterized as convincing.....seemed eerily familiar to a schoolyard(as in grammer school...not college) retort......"so there" Please come back with an actual argument...or don't bother,as I said earlier I'm a little busy tonight and responding to juveniles is not on my agenda.

Elisabella -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:37:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Sorry but I find it difficult to beleive that someone who actually attended college(wondering how that worked out? Evidence would suggest you wasted your time)thinks anything contained within that post could be characterized as convincing.....seemed eerily familiar to a schoolyard(as in grammer school...not college) retort......"so there" Please come back with an actual argument...or don't bother,as I said earlier I'm a little busy tonight and responding to juveniles is not on my agenda. Scroll up. Someone making $10k will pay ~$65 in federal income tax.

Thadius -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:37:48 PM)
Excellent work pulling up the tax figures. You did however forget to take into account some of the various refundable credits tha folks will qualify for which could turn that $65 owed into an actual refund of $500 or more (depending on circumstance).

Elisabella -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:40:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius Excellent work pulling up the tax figures. You did however forget to take into account some of the various refundable credits tha folks will qualify for which could turn that $65 owed into an actual refund of $500 or more (depending on circumstance). Oooooh very true....LOL

slvemike4u -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:41:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u A "consensus of liberal and conservatives" would,in actuality be in the best interest of those who prefer no action take place. Such a consensus is not possible and never will be.....hell getting those two polar opposites to agree that a thing is actually broke is tough enough....do you really expect they could agree on how to fix the thing. Hmmm. I think we both agree that all children should have access to medical care and that it may be possible for the taxpayers to cover some cost for the less fortunate. I think we both can agree that people should not be denied coverage for pre-existing conditions especially children. I think we both agree that the donut hole in the prescription coverage for Medicare and Medicaid recipients needed to be filled. I think we both can agree that people should be able to keep their coverage if they change or lose their jobs. I am sure there are many other areas that we can agree upon, and guess what that wasn't very hard to do was it? Then again, if you ideology prevents you from agreeing with me on these issues perhaps a consensus is not possible. P.S. I will let ya go on that trap you set for yourself involving civil disobedience. [;)] Concerning the trap...thanks,I sort of stepped in that one didn't I [:D] Now on this point....there is a bit of a leap from agreeing on things we would like to see addressed and tweaked......and agreeing on how to go about fixing these things Now if you have a solution...that would satisfy both liberal and conservative,you need to gget your ass to Washington.....and quick because this is one polarised society we currently live in.

Silence8 -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:42:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Nor are you in the mood to read the bill. Lots of power in being informed. Its hard to debate something that not everyone has read. lol... Yeah, but Tazzy... that would require wading through pages and pages of "bullshit" (to use Silence's own word) that he can't understand and he wouldn't have time left to look at his picture books. [;)] You're an idiot. And there are no pictures in Das Kapital. Im sorry. Did i offend you somehow? Calling someone.. anyone.. an idiot because they dont agree with you, especially when you have said the same thing yourself, isnt the exact sing of intelligence. Technically this is a continuation of a feud over in the dental coverage post. It's annoying that the two of you have elevated reading a 1000-page legal document into some sort of transcendental moral act. It isn't; frankly, you'd be better off reading a real book, or the opinion of a specialist on federal law, or otherwise. It's blackmail, basically. You're committing a type of intellectual blackmail. And you're missing the most essential point, namely, that the medium itself is the message. Again and again I'll repeat this until it sinks in. You design a bill that's not meant to be read, and then chastise whose who don't read it. The form is as much the content as the content itself.

TreasureKY -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:42:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Sorry but I find it difficult to beleive that someone who actually attended college(wondering how that worked out? lol... I think you might have hit upon something, Mike. Notice first this post... quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 I'm a student. I read books ALL FUCKING DAY, for my livelihood. And then this one... quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 When I was in college... Seems within a couple of pages his status changed. [;)] Probably just as well. Being a student and reading for a living doesn't pay very well from what I understand.

Elisabella -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:45:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 And you're missing the most essential point, namely, that the medium itself is the message. Again and again I'll repeat this until it sinks in. You design a bill that's not meant to be read, and then chastise whose who don't read it. The form is as much the content as the content itself. I like you [:)]

Silence8 -> RE: Name your penalty! (3/26/2010 6:45:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Seems while I was away Ven adressed Elisabella's post( in better and more comprehensive fasion then I would be capable of doing) so before I go back to packing allow me to say ...Thanks Merc, and I hope it goes without saying the hopes for the weekend is reciprocal [:)]. PA the folks you descired are either a) off the grid and therefor have no need to fear this legislation and b) no one on 10k a year is paying Federal,State or local tax.....period. I think your 'b' is incorrect. Well seeing as I obviously beleive my "b"to be correct(or else I wouldn't have written it)it would seem you would need to show me my error.Care to do that? When I was in college, I didn't make 10k and still had to pay taxes. There. Sorry but I find it difficult to beleive that someone who actually attended college(wondering how that worked out? Evidence would suggest you wasted your time)thinks anything contained within that post could be characterized as convincing.....seemed eerily familiar to a schoolyard(as in grammer school...not college) retort......"so there" Please come back with an actual argument...or don't bother,as I said earlier I'm a little busy tonight and responding to juveniles is not on my agenda. I'm a little confused. Also, for someone who doesn't punctuate... You said no one under 10k pays taxes, right? That's not true. I know because of personal experience, namely, my own. I wasn't really attacking you, by the way.

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