Forgiveness and Grace.

Forgiveness and Grace. (Full Version)

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RCdc -> Forgiveness and Grace. (3/26/2010 1:55:40 PM)
"Unforgiveness is like drinking poison, then waiting for the other person to die!" One of my friends quoted the above that she only heard today. I had heard this before, only voiced in different ways. One by Mandela, and the most common substituting 'Unforgiveness' for Resentment. Either way they are cool statements. Now, in response, someone replied that forgiveness was only possible when we live in gods grace. Now fine, I get that concept but what about people who don't accept gods grace? Does this mean they are incapable of forgiving? Is it the fact that grace just exists that is the definer? Wouldn't you then have to accept grace in the first place before you can forgive (all denominational POV looked forward to). If you don't have to accept grace and it just 'is' then isn't forgiveness just a given anyway? the.dark.

Thadius -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/26/2010 2:57:51 PM)
Just a quick thought on this one. I have always felt as though it was more along the lines of "In order to be forgiven, one must be able to forgive (oneself and others)." In short, it is hard to give forgivence to somebody that is unable to forgive the themselves, and why would you try to forgive somebody that is not willing to do the same for others. Possibly more soon.

Vendaval -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/26/2010 3:42:27 PM)
I don't think a person need to "live in God's grace" to practice forgiveness. I do think that our attitudes shape our behaviors, i.e. being willing to forgive ourselves and others. This may simply be a division of definitions.

cpK69 -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/26/2010 7:30:32 PM)
To forgive, is to let go of/excuses judgment. The truth of the matter is, the only person an individual is capable of judging is self, because the only one an individual can truly know is self. Even that is a work in progress. However, I suspect even that is not wise. The reason being; to err is human and liberty is ours, therefore, there is nothing to forgive. By that logic, the ‘grace of God’ would be truth. quote: what about people who don't accept gods grace? Does this mean they are incapable of forgiving? Most likely. Kim

Kirata -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/26/2010 9:17:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCdc in response, someone replied that forgiveness was only possible when we live in gods grace. The wording suggests a Christian point of view in which the statement would refer to being forgiven, not forgiving others, and specifically to being forgiven by God. "To live in God's grace," in this point of view, is to accept the forgiveness that God's love for us offers. That said, however, Thadius is the Pastor here, not me. K.

takemeforyourown -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/26/2010 9:32:30 PM)
I sense some false logic. Assumption: Humans are capable of Forgiveness only if they accept Jesus as the sole path to Salvation. Does not compute. I would say, "Not forgiving someone is like stewing in a pot full of your own shit for all eternity". Edited to add that, you're only hurting yourself.

Kirata -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/26/2010 9:46:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: takemeforyourown I sense some false logic. Assumption: Humans are capable of Forgiveness only if they accept Jesus as the sole path to Salvation. Does not compute. If your post was "in reply to Kirata" as it says, I have no idea how you got here from there. K.

eyesopened -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/27/2010 3:45:43 AM)
It has been my experience that forgiveness is something that benefits the forgiver, not necessarily the forgiven. Let me illustrate. I was so angry with my ex-husband for abandoning his (our) children that I was filled with hate toward him. Every time I even thought about the man my heartbeat would rise and I would feel almost ill. But one day I made the decision to forgive him. I never called him and said "I forgive you." in fact I have never told him that to this day. I just forgave him. And immediately, he had no more power over me. I was healed. It had nothing to do with God or being in God's grace. But it made me wonder about the nature of this Energy I call "God". Maybe it's just that forgiveness is such a positive energy that it is necessary to this thing I call God. Whether one believes in some diety or not, forgiveness is a way to change negative energy into positive energy. IMO

NorthernGent -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/27/2010 4:05:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCdc Now, in response, someone replied that forgiveness was only possible when we live in gods grace. Now fine, I get that concept but what about people who don't accept gods grace? Does this mean they are incapable of forgiving? I think resentment and being unforgiving aren't one and the same. I would absolutely agree that resentment is self-defeating. There are things I can't forgive - but resentment doesn't build up as a result. It's a matter of your philosophy on life. Everyone make mistakes and I certainly acknowledge that and can forgive where the occasion warrants forgiveness; other times - there are occasions where the situation does not warrant forgiveness. I think it depends on the person involved and the pattern of behaviour - one swallow doesn't make a summer.

RCdc -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/27/2010 5:19:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: RCdc in response, someone replied that forgiveness was only possible when we live in gods grace. The wording suggests a Christian point of view in which the statement would refer to being forgiven, not forgiving others, and specifically to being forgiven by God. "To live in God's grace," in this point of view, is to accept the forgiveness that God's love for us offers. That said, however, Thadius is the Pastor here, not me. K. I thought about that too Kirata. But it doesn't seem to gel with the original statement/quote. If one is a christian(which this lady is) then of course it makes sense to say that forgiveness only occurs living in gods grace. But the quote (too me anyway - plese correct me if I am reading it wrong) is saying that if one does not forgive, then it's more a poison to ones self, rather than the person you are unforgiving of? What I am meditating on is the concept of being able to forgive is only facilitated by the grace of god. This doesn't make any sense to me. Thank you for responding btw. the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/27/2010 5:26:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius Just a quick thought on this one. I have always felt as though it was more along the lines of "In order to be forgiven, one must be able to forgive (oneself and others)." In short, it is hard to give forgivence to somebody that is unable to forgive the themselves, and why would you try to forgive somebody that is not willing to do the same for others. Possibly more soon. I do hope so, because I think you might possibly be able to enlightne me on this. I really do appriciate you taking the time to answer. the.dark.

sirsholly -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/27/2010 5:31:56 AM)
quote: "Unforgiveness is like drinking poison, then waiting for the other person to die!" Wow...that is powerful and thought provoking. I really do not see it as having anything to do with God, though. Rather, self preservation perhaps? Forgiveness is not having the offender kneel before us as we place our hands on them and bless them. It actually has nothing to do with the offender. Harboring a negative emotion is draining, at best. And who does it bother the most...them? Of course not. A negative emotion is with us 24/7, bringing us down while it grows stronger. They have no clue about our bitterness/anger because it lives inside of us, draining our energy. If i am angry enough at someone for forgiveness to be a issue...then forgiveness is a MUST on my part, because i refuse to allow them to have my energy. And my revenge, the best revenge, is being happy.

RCdc -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/27/2010 5:36:49 AM)
Thanks for the input eyesopened. quote: Whether one believes in some diety or not, forgiveness is a way to change negative energy into positive energy. IMO I love this statement. The issue I struggle with is that is forgiveness is indeed only possible when living in gods grace, then does this not mean that those who believe this and who (or believe they are) under gods grace - are they not judging others which in itself is incorrect christian behaviour? Because no one should be anyones judge or juror, other than god? I am not just addressing you on this - I would like to hear from other people on their thoughts, but having read you before on this kind of subject, I get the impression you might understand what my thought process is. the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/27/2010 5:42:08 AM)
Hi NG. I completely agree. The only reason I brought the 'resentment' word into it was as an example of how a quote can be and has been altered. My friend had never heard it before, but I had all but for the change of a single word. Both quotes have their own merits though and are equally thought provoking IMO. quote: There are things I can't forgive - but resentment doesn't build up as a result. Now this puts a whole new slant on it and I thank you for that. I believe that thinking like that might just be the difference between false humility and being humble - does that make any sense or am I rambling? the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/27/2010 5:49:05 AM)
I agree with you on nearly every point holly. The one thing I would struggle with is the concept of revenge, but thats just me. I cannot relate to the concept of wanting someone to suffer, even if I had suffered under them.(Not that I am making any point that you would because what you posted may just be a way of expressing a concept and I completely get that). Maybe I just haven't suffered enough that I could feel like that. I am surely not perfect and I cannot second guess how I would react should something occur that might stir such emotions. the.dark.

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/27/2010 6:09:11 AM)
I don't agree with the initial quote about drinking poison, I see no reason to direct negative emotion at someone just because someone did something bad. If I choose not to forgive someone then I will not waste any emotion on that person by not forgiving them. I think the quote is confusing hatred and forgiveness; you can understand why someone did something but you don't have to forgive their actions and that lack of forgiveness doesn't have to mean you directing emotional negativity their way. Realistically only at work we are stuck with people, everywhere else we can choose based on past experience. In either situation how forgiving you are has nothing to do with deluded awareness of some unproven omnipotent force. Edited: clarification of double negative.

sirsholly -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/27/2010 6:26:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCdc I agree with you on nearly every point holly. The one thing I would struggle with is the concept of revenge, but thats just me. I cannot relate to the concept of wanting someone to suffer, even if I had suffered under them.(Not that I am making any point that you would because what you posted may just be a way of expressing a concept and I completely get that). Revenge is done for us...because we WANNA!! We want to hurt someone as we have been hurt. The thought might bring a smile...but after an act of revenge is preformed, you just feel even worse, as you are now on their level. It is never a good thing and generally always backfires into compounded negative emotions. Thats why i say the best revenge is to simply be happy. YOU are not hurting the offender. They are hurting themselves when they see someone who is truly content.

JstAnotherSub -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/27/2010 7:17:38 AM)
I don't think I am good at forgiveness when it is something that really really hurt me. What I am good at is putting it behind me and moving on without any regrets. This has gotten so easy for me as I get older that it sometimes makes me think I have become a colder person that I would like to be, but at the same time, it allows me to release the anger and move on with my life. An example that happened recently is an acquaintance, who I thought of at the time as a friend, misinterpreted something I said. Totally out of left field took it to mean something totally different than what I said. Now, it turned out that this happened because of some things he had been through, that my self and no one else I know could even imagine would make the comment I made be something that would make him angry. Even after he made me understand that it had made him angry, I told him I was sorry for hurting him and making him angry, but that was not my intention and he had to realize that it was something going on in his mind that made him receive the message as he did, not something I actually said. Rather than admitting this, he accused me of "acting ignorant" and really chewed me out. This was when I realized that anyone who could misconstrue what I meant in that way, and think I could be so cruel, did not think of me as a friend and did not belong in my life. So, no more of him in my life, after really thinking about it for days. And I feel no loss at all. It is what it is, and I have not given it a thought until this thread made me think about if I had forgiven him in order to not have conflict within me or if I just chalked it up to learning something new about folks and moved on. Just moving on, as I have done with a few folks since I got divorced and hit the 40's. Good or bad, it is certainly good for me to do it that way. Gawd I rambled, hope somewhere it makes sense-lol.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/27/2010 7:41:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCdc Hi NG. I completely agree. The only reason I brought the 'resentment' word into it was as an example of how a quote can be and has been altered. My friend had never heard it before, but I had all but for the change of a single word. Both quotes have their own merits though and are equally thought provoking IMO. quote: There are things I can't forgive - but resentment doesn't build up as a result. Now this puts a whole new slant on it and I thank you for that. I agreed with the whole of NG's post. I too believe that resentment is what might fester in someone, not the lack forgiveness. I believe that thinking like that might just be the difference between false humility and being humble - does that make any sense or am I rambling? the.dark. I don't want to come down on religion, but I will say one thing though. Having been raised as a catholic, I was taught a lot the importance of forgiving with out being taught how to get over resentment. Resentment was just something you had to get over, try to, but no tools were ever given to me to do it. Of course, this might not have been everyone's experience, I realise. That to me was a false humility. It was in my adult life, through eastern philosophies and writers like Krishnamurti that I got to dealing with issues of resentment. Truly being at peace only comes after resentment has been dealt with. And in that sense, yes that is what represents true humbleness. - LA

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Forgiveness and Grace. (3/27/2010 7:59:58 AM)
My further thoughts on the subject not specifically directed at anyone: People forgive too easily, they should be aware that if the hope is to remove anger from being directed at the person responsible for the initial injustice you could instead just be refocusing the anger onto yourself for allowing the person responsible to feel better about themselves too quickly. It's a bit of a nonsense notion that just because somebody is apologising that they actually mean it and this is going to translate into the victim feeling better, that to me is twisted logic. The Nelson Mandela quote also doesn't really apply to the average person for two reasons: 1) Not many people are going to be subject to that level of injustice and so to cope with missing a good part of your life you have to forgive because there is no alternative other than to hold onto that resentment and ruin the rest of your life. 2)If he had any anger, which probably he still does realistically, then who would he have focused it onto anyway? The politicians that imposed the policy, the law enforcement agencies that enforced it, the rest of the world for turning a blind eye for so long? Most of us can direct our blame towards a single individual not often we can legitimately say the whole system is wrong and therefore have no real focus for our blame.

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