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One of these things may not be like the others - 3/26/2010 7:13:42 PM

catize

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Altruism and submission: synonym or antonym?

I would enjoy a discussion on this.
Several points of interest would be the 'why' you see it whichever way you do and if there is a difference in how dominant and submissive folk view it.

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/26/2010 9:15:27 PM

LafayetteLady

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I would say they are not necessarily related at all. Someone can be submissive without being altruistic and likewise, someone can be altruistic without being submissive. I can't for the life of me figure out how they would be opposites.

It seems as though you have some though that someone who is submissive and enjoys doing things strictly to please their dominant would be altruistic. Or someone who is altruistic would enjoy doing things for the benefit of others.

Usually when we think of the term "altruistic," we get an image of people who do charitable works, someone who will step in to help someone in need without thinking of the benefit to themselves. People who volunteer for Habitat for Humanity, are involved in charities and such.

It's nice to think that as a submissive that one serves for the sake of pleasing their dom, but that really isn't the complete truth is it? After all, a submissive serves because that is what gives them fufillment in life, which isn't altruistic at all. Someone doesnt' "identify" themselves as submissive because it makes them miserable to do so. It makes them happy. One step further is that they don't "serve" the masses, only the one who THEY decide they will serve. The rest of the world could pound salt for the most part.

Yes, there are many that are "naturally" submissive and have a tendency to be more "servile" to everyone, more the type that is a follower rather than a leader. But that isn't being altruistic either, is it?

So no I don't think they are synonyms or antonyms. They have different meanings and are not interchangeable.

(in reply to catize)

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/26/2010 11:17:26 PM

catize

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Although you took my question quite literally, your reply was well put and the type of discussion I am looking for

quote:

Someone doesnt' "identify" themselves as submissive because it makes them miserable to do so.

<laughs> Well I certainly hope not!

I thank you for your time and thoughtful response.

I would add a question to my OP. Is the definition of altruism a reality in any way?

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(in reply to LafayetteLady)

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/27/2010 7:14:30 AM

slavekal

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Definitely not antonyms. Not synonyms either, but altruism and submission do overlap a bit.

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/27/2010 9:45:45 AM

DesFIP

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Not necessarily related. I'm submissive not because I get off doing wonderful things for others, but because it is fulfilling to me. I'm charitable because I've been brought up that way, not because I'm altruistic.

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/27/2010 10:19:36 AM

beej

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Not necessarily related. I'm submissive not because I get off doing wonderful things for others, but because it is fulfilling to me.

word.

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/27/2010 7:56:23 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
I would add a question to my OP. Is the definition of altruism a reality in any way?

Ah, now that is something that has been debated since the dawn of time, I think, lol. After all, if someone takes part in something that would be thought of as altruistic, what is the motivation? If the motivation is because they get happiness from helping others, then it really isn't altruistic is it?

I don't believe that doing charitable deeds are ever altruistic, the person doing them always gets some fufillment from them, even if it is simply the joy of helping others. That isn't to say that those people are selfish, self serving jerks who shouldn't do such things, just that it isn't necessarily an act of altruism.

More altruistic is the person who, without any thought, will go into a burning building to save another life. They aren't thinking of being a hero (typically), they aren't looking for recognition, they aren't concerned with their own safety. They simply act to save another life. I don't think the concept of "it is the right thing to do" takes away from the altruistic nature of it. Having said that though, I don't believe that firefighters, policemen, lifeguards, doctors, nurses, etc. are altruistic. In their case, that is their job. We expect them to save a life, and they are being paid to do so.

I don't think that wondering whether or not anyone is truly altruistic matters all that much though. In the long run, big picture kind of view, the motivations for helping others frequently doesn't matter. DesFIP saying that she is charitable because she was "raised that way" doesn't make any charitable acts she does less meaningful. As long as someone isn't helping others because of some personal gain they would receive (hard to think of an example, other than the extreme of helping someone so they put you in their will), you are still helping others and if more people would do that, the world would be a better place.

(in reply to catize)

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/27/2010 8:46:04 PM

catize

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If I may ask, what are you thinking when you say they may overlap?

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/27/2010 8:47:05 PM

catize

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Thanks for your reply. I do think fulfillment is a big motivator! Just out of curiosity, though, is the charitable work/contributions as fulfilling when it is “just” what is expected? (I don't mean the word 'just' in a negative way).

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"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
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(in reply to DesFIP)

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/27/2010 8:50:48 PM

catize

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I agree, service and good deeds are not negated by questionable motivations.
Mother Teresa was known for dedicating her life to doing for others. If I recall correctly, I remember an interview where she admitted her motivation was to get to heaven!

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"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
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(in reply to LafayetteLady)

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/28/2010 2:43:48 PM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

Thanks for your reply. I do think fulfillment is a big motivator! Just out of curiosity, though, is the charitable work/contributions as fulfilling when it is “just” what is expected? (I don't mean the word 'just' in a negative way).

I don't know since I've never done it otherwise. It is part of my religion. So whether I get a phone call from a good cause I have chosen to support in the past, or am walking by a homeless guy on the street and feel impelled to buy him a pair of gloves and walk back to give to him, each time it is doing what I know I should be doing.

Although giving to a person, whether directly or picking a family in need from an organization and delivering back to the organization the things this family needs is more satisfying then just reading my credit card number over the phone.

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/28/2010 2:59:01 PM

lally2

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i dont even know how the word altruistic came about - is there even such a thing as altruism.

someone i know has just finished a four year course training to be something in the catholic faith, where he goes out to people as a bereavement counsellor - he isnt being paid - this possibly might be, except that i know he gets huge amounts of reward from helping people

you could argue that his kindness, caring and reward in helping people is part of an altruistic desire to be of use in the community - even the reward he gets from it could be considered part of his loving, giving generous nature.

if you can argue that, then you could, at a stretch argue that a submissive who submits to something her Master wants is all about putting her needs after his. and there are times when that isnt self-gratifying. sometimes submitting to a thing isnt that easy but its done anyway. then you have altruism i think, but its probably a fleeting moment before it passes.

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/28/2010 3:43:43 PM

allthatjaz

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I personally believe the only selfless act we are capable of is a spontaneous act. LafayetteLady suggested running into a burning house to save someone.
We hear of many heroic acts, from crossing thin ice to try and save a drowning dog to climbing into a burning car to pull someone out but these are acts that are done without stopping and thinking. They are spontaneous acts. If they had stopped and thought about it they possibly couldn't of done it and that is why so many people will watch a burning house with people inside it but not dare to go in.

Some years ago my sister was attacked by a crazed knife man. A woman ran out of nowhere and jumped on the attacker and received some serious knife wounds herself. She hadn't stood and looked on with the others and the others all told the police afterwards that they were waiting for their chance to rescue her. This woman had taken immediate action without thinking of what the consequences could be. That in my opinion is a clear act of altruism.

The only act of true altruism that I can think of that involves 'thought' is giving your life for another. An example is perhaps the pregnant woman that is told that its either her life or the babies and she chooses for the baby to live.

When we work for a charity we get self satisfaction, when we raise our children we get self satisfaction. When we work for the emergency services we get paid as well as self satisfaction.

Being submissive has nothing to do with being selfless.

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/28/2010 3:56:59 PM

allthatjaz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

i dont even know how the word altruistic came about - is there even such a thing as altruism.

someone i know has just finished a four year course training to be something in the catholic faith, where he goes out to people as a bereavement counsellor - he isnt being paid - this possibly might be, except that i know he gets huge amounts of reward from helping people

you could argue that his kindness, caring and reward in helping people is part of an altruistic desire to be of use in the community - even the reward he gets from it could be considered part of his loving, giving generous nature.

I believe this to be kind and giving. These sort of people are very special but I don't believe they are altruistic.

quote:

if you can argue that, then you could, at a stretch argue that a submissive who submits to something her Master wants is all about putting her needs after his. and there are times when that isnt self-gratifying. sometimes submitting to a thing isnt that easy but its done anyway. then you have altruism i think, but its probably a fleeting moment before it passes.

We could then say the same about the woman that gets in after a hard days work and cooks dinner for her family, even though she really doesn't want to cook dinner!
When a submissive does something even though she doesn't like it, she still gets the satisfaction of knowing she achieved something for her Master regardless of not liking it.

Perhaps if a slave stayed with her Master and carried on doing his bidding even though she genuinely couldn't stand him but I honestly can't see that ever happening!

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/28/2010 6:03:38 PM

tsuta

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If doing an good thing can only be altruism if you dont feel good about it.... whats the point, really? Someone said the important thing is that some good has been done... i believe that too. You could argue that the point is simply that something good has been made and whether you feel good or not about it doesnt matter... but someone who gets help probably has nothing against the fact that the helper has a warm fuzzy feeling about it... if someone helped me and didn't feel good about it, i would be like, dude, why do it then? And probably feel bad about getting help when it was apparently a chore. If the person feels good about helping someone, then a human connection between the two can be made and that feels wonderful. When i take time to stop and talk to an homeless person, i think that makes both of us feel much better than a quarter thrown in a hat without a second glance. And sometime it feels like i'm building myself into a better person by doing it. But then again, when i do stop, i dont do it in the intention of getting my fuzzy feeling "reward"... im just responding to my empathic nature.

Same thing with people spontaneously saving people without thinking about it... if they feel good and proud afterward, does it make them less "altruistic"? I think it's a good sign for humanity that we're wired to feel good about helping others. Screw altruism ;)

As for submissives being either selfish or altruistic (?), i dont think that has anything to do with being submissive, its the basic personality type... and we're all a bit "selfish", if that's what wanting to be happy is.

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/28/2010 6:30:09 PM

dreamerdreaming

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I don't see altruism and submission as related. You might just as well mull over whether altruism is related to dominance. By owning my slave I am serving his needs, just as much as he is serving mine. Its a reciprocal relationship. One in which we each give as much as we get.

You could make a case that altruism and love are the same kind of thing, maybe. Altruism is
"the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism)" (Dictionary.com). That sounds a lot like love.

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/28/2010 7:46:33 PM

catize

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I can relate to that. There is an expectation at work that everyone will donate to an organization because our patients benefit from that particular source. I don't have any emotions about it either way. I simply go along with it because I don't want to rock the boat. I guess that is my 'reward'?

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"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
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(in reply to DesFIP)

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/28/2010 7:55:42 PM

catize

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Responding to two people here:

lally2 said

quote:

if you can argue that, then you could, at a stretch argue that a submissive who submits to something her Master wants is all about putting her needs after his. and there are times when that isnt self-gratifying. sometimes submitting to a thing isnt that easy but its done anyway. then you have altruism i think, but its probably a fleeting moment before it passes.

Althatjaz said

quote:

We could then say the same about the woman that gets in after a hard days work and cooks dinner for her family, even though she really doesn't want to cook dinner!
When a submissive does something even though she doesn't like it, she still gets the satisfaction of knowing she achieved something for her Master regardless of not liking it.

And that is just the sort of thing I was considering when I posted the question. For me, in most cases, I do get satisfaction from the fact I did it for him. Although I admit there have been a few (very few, but none the less) times where I obeyed but I still do not feel good about because it affected and changed something integral about myself.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to catize)

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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/28/2010 7:57:49 PM

catize

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quote:

Same thing with people spontaneously saving people without thinking about it... if they feel good and proud afterward, does it make them less "altruistic"? I think it's a good sign for humanity that we're wired to feel good about helping others. Screw altruism ;)

As for submissives being either selfish or altruistic (?), i dont think that has anything to do with being submissive, its the basic personality type... and we're all a bit "selfish", if that's what wanting to be happy is.

Most of us do what we do, at least most of the time, because we get something positive back. It is not a bad thing, it just is what it is!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
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RE: One of these things may not be like the others - 3/28/2010 8:00:48 PM

catize

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming

I don't see altruism and submission as related. You might just as well mull over whether altruism is related to dominance. By owning my slave I am serving his needs, just as much as he is serving mine. Its a reciprocal relationship. One in which we each give as much as we get.

You could make a case that altruism and love are the same kind of thing, maybe. Altruism is
"the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism)" (Dictionary.com). That sounds a lot like love.

Unconditional love? Possible, I think, but rare.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to dreamerdreaming)

Post #: 20

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