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RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 12:26:33 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		I think that the Gorean Natural Order and the Female Supremacists are both being silly - since there are both male and female submissives, and both male and female dominants, it's obvious that neither model fits the real world. Back when I was looking, if someone expected me to submit to them, or wanted me to dominate them, because of gender superiority rather than the way that the two of us actually interacted, I rolled my eyes and blocked/deleted them.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 12:43:54 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

I think that the Gorean Natural Order and the Female Supremacists are both being silly - since there are both male and female submissives, and both male and female dominants, it's obvious that neither model fits the real world.


Exactly. That is why they chose to build/dream up Gor and the OWK. But hey! Whatever floats your boat as they say ;-)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 12:48:23 PM   
bondmaid123


Posts: 143
Joined: 6/6/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

And I could say the same about any power dynamics that as a blanket rule made one gender (or race or sexual orientation or D/s orientation or ability or anything really) superior to the other. It goes against everything that I have been raised to think and anything that I fundamentally believe in.

- LA


But, Ma'am, the Gorean outlook *doesn't* say that one gender is superior to the other.  Well, I take that back.  I guess if we wanted to play semantics games it ~could~.... but as I normally interpret the term "superior", nah.  I believe that the hierarchy I'm discussing is one of authority.    In my mind it's a dominance/submission dynamic, not superior/inferior.  Unless you mean superior like "My superior officer"?

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 12:50:24 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Hello again, Thadius,

This was probably one of the most diplomatic answers that could have been written on the subject.  I have to say that I highly appreciate that. 

I think we may very much be of the same mind here, though I'll admit that I find more cases of nature, rather than nurture.  This is the exact reason why the question of why someone would chose to serve doesn't come up much for Me.  While it would be against My nature, to someone else, it would be the most natural thing in the world.  (With the right person, setting, etc, etc.)  Knowing that I'm wired a certain way makes it easier for Me to accept that others might be wired differently.  I tend to think that being who we are due to that wiring, the nature of the person inside, has a lot more to do with it than the shell we came with on the outside.



Excellent points. I believe in fact that you have even answered the question that spawned this discussion. Knowing that we are wired a particular way, and that is what drives our actions, does it not make sense that a slave would have trouble submitting to a person that they perceive as a slave (sub, whatever nomenclature is appropriate) with a little more freedom?

When we add in the concept of play versus living, it then muddies the pond, especially for those that are caught tightly in the bonds of their own slavery. Some may even argue that a switch is fighting their own natural wiring, while I personally see it as more of a level of how dominant they are in comparison to the level of the partner they are with at that time.

In terms of protocol, how should a slave view somebody that submits to another and then tries to dominate them? This is the interesting paradox this discussion leads to, and I have enjoyed reading the many comments.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 12:55:11 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

I think that the Gorean Natural Order and the Female Supremacists are both being silly - since there are both male and female submissives, and both male and female dominants, it's obvious that neither model fits the real world. Back when I was looking, if someone expected me to submit to them, or wanted me to dominate them, because of gender superiority rather than the way that the two of us actually interacted, I rolled my eyes and blocked/deleted them.

I think that the Gorean concept of natural order fits the real world quite well. Men and women are different, neither half being better or worse than the other and both necessary parts of the whole. Yes that is a generalization but it still fits.

Results may vary.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 12:57:51 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Oh, I agree that men and women have some overarching differences, although there are always individual exceptions. I just don't agree that those differences imply that men are always dominant over women in our personal relationships. I had a male submissive for 5 years, and I was with my previous Dominant for 3 years. I didn't dominate or submit to either of them because I'm a woman, they just wouldn't have been interested in dating me if I weren't!

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 3/27/2010 12:59:07 PM >

(in reply to Thadius)
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RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 1:02:23 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bondmaid123

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

And I could say the same about any power dynamics that as a blanket rule made one gender (or race or sexual orientation or D/s orientation or ability or anything really) superior to the other. It goes against everything that I have been raised to think and anything that I fundamentally believe in.

- LA


But, Ma'am, the Gorean outlook *doesn't* say that one gender is superior to the other.  Well, I take that back.  I guess if we wanted to play semantics games it ~could~.... but as I normally interpret the term "superior", nah.  I believe that the hierarchy I'm discussing is one of authority.    In my mind it's a dominance/submission dynamic, not superior/inferior.  Unless you mean superior like "My superior officer"?



The simple fact that someone cannot reach a level of authority because of their gender indicates a judgement value based on gender. No matter how much you want to contextualise it, slice it, dice it, authority is power. Saying that a woman cannot attain the same level of power inherently states that she has less value because she cannot achieve a certain level.

I do not equate domination and submission as superior/inferior either. I would however equate predetermining a gender as being dominant over another as an statement of inherent perceived superiority.

- LA





_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to bondmaid123)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 1:03:00 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

Good point Level. I put higher on the totem pole people with integrity who can come to the table clearly expressing what they want and clearly identifying areas where they are unsure.

After that, we both determine if we are compatible. A person who is not compatible than me but has shown me nothing but respect and integrity will remain high in my esteem regardless if they are in this for the lifestyle or simply to get off.

- LA


Agreed, LA, absolutely.

quote:

Thadius:

Hiya Level,

I would think intent definitely matters. My post earlier refers to those that choose to kneel as their place in the world, know what I mean? Further, I have in the past knelt to pray, and to get to an appropriate height to have sex, or even to play fight. None of which has anything to do with submission, which is more to the point that was being made in the OP, I think that for some it is hard to recognize somebody that chooses to kneel in submission to then turn around and dominate them.

Just my opinion.


Hey Thadius,

Well stated. One thing I'm not sure about though, is if the OP does just mean genuine submission; I got the feeling that she may have meant bottoms as well as submissives. Then again, my brain is functioning about as well as a Ford Pinto in a collision currently, so I may have botched her meaning lol.

Honestly, this is one reason I don't talk much about switching here, it seems to confuse the issues, at least as to why I came here.

quote:

LP:

This was probably one of the most diplomatic answers that could have been written on the subject. I have to say that I highly appreciate that.


Hear, hear. He is one of the folks I have the most respect for here at CM.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 1:03:25 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

Oh, I agree that men and women have some overarching differences, although there are always individual exceptions. I just don't agree that those differences imply that men are always dominant over women in our personal relationships.


Bingo.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 1:03:29 PM   
DWCskitten


Posts: 199
Joined: 3/2/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterXMagnum


quote:

ORIGINAL: DWCskitten

~Fast Reply~
So, i read the source thread the link sent me to. i'm not sure i understand the whole thing, unless it's saying that Dominants are on the top of the heap, then subs, then slaves. But what about? Does that mean for the value of one's opinions, or just general respect, or what? i suppose if we're going to think this way, why not take it one step further and say Masters/Mistresses are on the very top, then Dom/mes, then subs, and then slaves are at the very bottom?

For me, i just respect everyone, regardless of where they are in any so-called heirarchy, and value everyone's opinions. But then, i'm just that way. Plus, with the way i identify now (slave), i'd be at the bottom of that heap. lol Of course, i still would not actually submit to Anyone unless Master Sir told me, or allowed me, to. Respect certainly, but not submission without His permission.

~kitten~

Very well said. This isn't scening, it's discourse. We come here to air views and opine, and read to hear those views and opinions. We should give the respect to others opinions we expect to receive, even when we disagree.

IMHO <smirk>


Thank You, Sir. Now, i've read the rest of the posts so far....about 2 1/2 pages. i would add that i do not feel gender or role, either one, means that one person is automatically more important than any other. At the same time, because i feel this way personally about where i land in the scheme of things, i will defer and be submissive in most things to pretty much A/anyone in bdsm circles. That is just how i feel about myself. At the same time i will not actually submit in a D/s or M/s encounter to A/anyone w/o Master Sir allowing it.....meaning in general company i will do so, but not in a so-called intimate encounter and/or play situation. And i do not assume where anyone else would be in any heirarchy compared to any other person either.

~kitten~

~edited to explain myself better~

< Message edited by DWCskitten -- 3/27/2010 1:05:50 PM >

_____________________________

formerly sweetsub1957.

New beginnings...my first poly relationship.

Proudly Owned property of MasterDWC.


(in reply to MasterXMagnum)
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RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 1:04:07 PM   
bondmaid123


Posts: 143
Joined: 6/6/2009
Status: offline 		There is no basis for saying that ANY woman will submit to ANY man, within the Gorean perspective.  There are quotes which say that all women are *capable* of submitting to the *right* kind of man, yes.  And there are plenty of examples of dominant females in leadership roles, even (Vera the panthergirl comes to mind....) and slave males (even some who are as emasculated as some of the very "subbiest of sub boys" I've met) who are quite happy to stay there.  The concept is presented as a norm, not an absolute.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 1:06:47 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

For ME, no big picture hierachy exists.

There are, quite literally tons, of dominant people, people that identify as mistress or master, people that other people view as master or mistress, that I see as morons.

There are also quite a lot of people that identify as submissive or slave that I hold in very high regard, higher regard than most of the people that identify as dominant, master, mistress.

This is one issue that, unless it's directly affecting my life.........I really don't give a flying fuck and am clueless as to why anyone else would.


Bingo.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 1:08:11 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Oh, I agree that men and women have some overarching differences, although there are always individual exceptions. I just don't agree that those differences imply that men are always dominant over women in our personal relationships. I had a male submissive for 5 years, and I was with my previous Dominant for 3 years. I didn't dominate or submit to either of them because I'm a woman, they just wouldn't have been interested in dating me if I weren't!


I don't think that I suggested that one or the other was or wasn't always dominant in a relation. Perhaps, that came across because of the stereotypes that Goreans believe that all women are doormats? BTW, I rate a male thief lower than a slave regardless of gender.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 1:10:43 PM   
WantingToServe11


Posts: 93
Joined: 1/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DickSteel

Hierarchy:

1 - The man of steel
2 – My accountant
3 – The current queen of the roost
4 – Ex wife's attorney
5 – That chick from the bar who's name escapes me at the moment
6 – The ex wife
7 - The other exs
8 – The salesman at the Cadillac dealership
9 – The rest of you mofos


WOW! I feel so honored to be on your list.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
BTW, I rate a male thief lower than a slave regardless of gender.


Where would you rate a female thief?

< Message edited by WantingToServe11 -- 3/27/2010 1:17:04 PM >

(in reply to DickSteel)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 1:12:08 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Greetings, bondmaid,
I have only read a couple of the Gor novels, and don't specifically recall any quotes about Natural Order from them. I had meant to specifically address the way it has been presented here on the forums, which has been sometimes presented in absolute terms, or with biological justications (men are stronger than women, so they can physically overpower them). In my experience with people in general, I'd say that claiming that all men or all women are *anything* at all tends to be mistaken, there are almost always exceptions, except things like "All men need oxygen to breathe" and "All women exhale CO2."

Thadius, I've seen the Natural Order presented here in ways that I can agree with, as a norm rather than an absolute, and don't really have a problem with that. I actually agree that there are a lot more women who are submissive than Dominant - heck, the male submissives complain about the demographics all the time. It's only when people try to insist that the Dommes really slaves who haven't realised it yet, or some such, that I get annoyed. In general, I personally don't feel there is much correlation between gender and dominance. Yes, probably most women could find someone who they could submit to, or at least who could overpower them. Yes, most men can probably find someone they could submit to, or who could overpower them. People choose their partner's gender usually more based on their sexual orientation than upon D/s. A heterosexual female submissive is most likely to want to submit to a man, and a heterosexual male submissive is most likely to want to submit to a woman.

For years, I didn't experience submission toward anyone, and I did have several people, including a few who self-identified as Gorean, tell me that I was submissive because I'm a woman. It just made me more resistant to the idea. If my Master had claimed that I should submit to him because I'm female, instead of interacting with me in a way that inspired my submission, we wouldn't have gotten together in the first place.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 3/27/2010 1:22:12 PM >

(in reply to bondmaid123)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 1:12:19 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		im having a problem relating to heirachy at all.  if heirachy means that someone is 'better' than another then i have to tell you i dont believe in that at all.  i might curtsey to the queen of england, but i dont happen to believe she is better than me or anyone else.

same with a Master -  i dont believe a Master is better than me simply because i defer control and decision - i trust him - therefore i defer.

isnt this more about pecking order - i can relate to pecking order completely.  someone has a stronger will than mine a clearer objective a plan a goal an attitude or approach ill follow - so long as they show leadership skills i can believe in ill be there.  ask me to look up to someone because they reckon their Dominant - nope, not going to happen unless i feel that the way they conduct themselves is worthy of my following.

sounds a bit arsey i know but in the end people are people - life is a leveller, its how people get through life that catches my attention more than whether they are Dom, Domme, switch, sub or slave.

the interesting thing about this thread is how the position of slave is placed as the lower denominator, whilst many feel that slaves consider themselves better than subs - something else about this heirachy thing thats all askewed.  noone is better than anyone, its all about orientation and how that works for them, surely

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 1:17:47 PM   
bondmaid123


Posts: 143
Joined: 6/6/2009
Status: offline 		Oh, I completely agree. :)  (And you're right.. there's a lot of drivel presented, especially in online fora, in terms of absolutes that have diddly squat to do with anything represented in the Gorean novels but rather sort of props up the bloated egos of people who are too intellectually lazy to have to actually ~interact~ with people and prefer to try to hide on their Self-Capped-Pedestals and pontificate from above. )

Really it's just ~guidelines~, by and large, in my perspective. ;)

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 1:20:34 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		bondmaid, there are a lot of very intelligent Goreans who I respect a lot - not because of their being Gorean, or because they are Free, but because what they write makes sense. Same goes for people in any other group here.

(in reply to bondmaid123)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 1:22:24 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Oh, I agree that men and women have some overarching differences, although there are always individual exceptions. I just don't agree that those differences imply that men are always dominant over women in our personal relationships. I had a male submissive for 5 years, and I was with my previous Dominant for 3 years. I didn't dominate or submit to either of them because I'm a woman, they just wouldn't have been interested in dating me if I weren't!


I don't think that I suggested that one or the other was or wasn't always dominant in a relation. Perhaps, that came across because of the stereotypes that Goreans believe that all women are doormats? BTW, I rate a male thief lower than a slave regardless of gender.


For the record, I don't believe that all Goreans consider all women as doormats. And for the record, I get along well with most of the Goreans I've come across.

This is not a debate of of anyone being right or wrong. This is a debate about perceptions, simply. And I would prefer if people were real and upfront about their beliefs rather then make up justifications for them, that's all.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 1:27:05 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		The trouble, though, is that people respond based on inaccurate understandings, and thus say things that may make sense inside their own heads but are nonetheless completely inaccurate. You and LA have done that here. What others are telling you instead is correct.

Quite often, I see an issue come up in the BDSM threads that simply would never exist from a Gorean perspective. I don't, however, rush in and set them straight. I remind myself that this is how BDSMers think and how they do things, and that I would see it differently is immaterial. So I stay out of it.

People frequently seem to think, however, that their casual contact with Gor somewhere gives them an accurate overview. It doesn't, and they should either learn or pass.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 60
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