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Can a pope resign from office? - 3/28/2010 2:12:19 AM   
Brain


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He needs to do IMO what’s best for the church not what’s best for him.

In 1294, Pope Celestine V, only five months after his election, issued a solemn decree declaring it permissible for a pope to resign and then did so.

He lived for two further years as a hermit, and was later declared a saint. The decree that he issued ended any doubt among canon lawyers about the validity of a papal resignation.

Having said all this, the likelihood of Pope Benedict voluntarily laying down his high office remains slim.

The Vatican is for the moment vigorously defending the record of his five-year papacy, and Benedict's previous conduct during the period when he was Cardinal Archbishop of Munich and subsequently head of the CDF, the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, the watchdog Vatican department responsible for disciplining priests guilty of bad conduct.


Can a pope resign from office?

As pedophile priest scandals rock the Catholic Church, BBC Vatican correspondent David Willey looks at whether a Pope can resign.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8590308.stmhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8590308.stm
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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 3/28/2010 3:36:12 AM   
Politesub53


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Even if the Pope resigns, how can the Vatican absolve itself from these scandals. The subject of abusive Priests has been around for many years, and in many Countries. The heirarchy have sumply moved those accused from church to church.

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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 3/28/2010 5:00:47 AM   
eyesopened


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In my opinion, the resignation of the pope would do little to change things.  As pointed out, these atrocities have been occuring under the reign of previous popes as well.   It would be better if Benedict would grow a pair and get his house in order.  It would be a pretty simple thing to strip these priests of their priesthood and turn them over to civil authorities.  At very least, send them to a cloistered order and keep them away from children.  The Church has laws and has remedies within its own law.  I don't understand what these popes are afraid of.

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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 3/28/2010 7:49:56 AM   
Aneirin


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The country in which priests operate have laws that govern everyone, surely priests are not above the law in those countries, if they commit a crime, they should be open to investigation just like any other person. Failure to capture and convict a paedophile priest is down to the police authorities in that country and the church, vatican or whatever, should be supporting individual country laws, not hiding behind it's own, that apparently allow these things to go on without punishment.

Nah, don't let ratzinger resign, let him be investigated , extradited and stand trial in the relevant countries for his part in covering up crimes or otherwise perverting the course of justice.

It is time these people are weeded out and made examples of so the public understand certain things are not acceptable, hitting the priests, so called guardians of spiritual  morality will I think have the required effect, no one should escape the law of the land when it comes to these matters, people who attack the very root of society, the helpless, unloved and vulnerable young.

But don't let the actions of these people mar the belief in the relevant religions, for it is only the leaders that have been seen to be the guilty parties, the leaders are not a reflection on the people, get rid of them and if you must, put someone of your own choice in their position, for what there is now,is  clearly not worthy.


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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 3/28/2010 9:24:39 AM   
Lorr47


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

In my opinion, the resignation of the pope would do little to change things.  As pointed out, these atrocities have been occuring under the reign of previous popes as well.   It would be better if Benedict would grow a pair and get his house in order.  It would be a pretty simple thing to strip these priests of their priesthood and turn them over to civil authorities.  At very least, send them to a cloistered order and keep them away from children.  The Church has laws and has remedies within its own law.  I don't understand what these popes are afraid of.


Law suits and the fact that the Church has deep pockets.

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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 3/28/2010 9:54:19 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

It would be better if Benedict would grow a pair and get his house in order.


Indeed. But that is unfortunately unlikely to happen because it is an old institution with unspoken laws and the power dynamics are phenomenally complex and have been installed, woven in over the years, to protect the interests of those it protects.

- LA


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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 3/28/2010 10:23:20 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Can a pope resign from office?

Yes.

The ability of a pope to resign was made official by Pope Boniface VIII who placed by decree into canon law:

“Our predecessor, Pope Celestine V, whilst he governed the Church, constituted and decreed that the Roman Pontiff can freely resign. Therefore lest it happen that this statute should in the course of time fall into oblivion, or that doubt upon the subject should lead to further disputes, We have determined with the counsel of our brethren that it be placed among other constitutions for a perpetual memory of the same.”

If a pope wishes to resign today, there are official steps that can be taken. According to the 1983 Code of Canon Law (Canon 332.2), “If it should so happen that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that he makes the resignation freely and that it be duly manifested, but not that it be accepted by anyone.”

What this means is that a pope merely needs to make his desire to resign clearly known and that it cannot be due to outside pressure or fraud, but it isn’t necessary that anyone “accept” his resignation. Ideally the resignation is given to the College of Cardinals, since they elected him in the first place and they can determine if the resignation is submitted freely. Regardless of who’s around, though, once he does it, it’s finalized.


Which Popes Have Resigned?

Determining just which popes have resigned is actually difficult because the records of church history are in such disarray for so many centuries. Some place the number as high as 10, some as low as four — it all depends upon how one defines a “resignation” and how the data is interpreted.

Pontian (230-235) was the first pope to resign and his case is clear. Pontian had the misfortune of being caught up in the severe persecution of Christians under emperor Maximinus Thrax and was sent to the mines on Sardina, a place from which few evidently managed to return alive. Pontian knew that he would almost certainly die on Sardina and didn't want there to be a long-term power vacuum in the church, so he decided that abdication would be the best course of action. Pontian's abdication also gives us the first certain date in the history of papacy: September 28, 235.

Marcellinus (296 - 304) didn’t actually resign, but his actions probably caused him to cease being pope. During the Diocletian persecutions of 303, Marcellinus handed over scriptures to Roman authorities and burned incense to the pagan gods. Such actions would have disqualified him from the priesthood and, therefore, the papacy. His name was kept off the official list of popes for a while, but today he is there and his papacy is marked as ending with his death.

Silverius (536 - 537), son of Pope Hormisdas, was deposed and exiled by empress Theodora of Constantinople, brought back by emperor Justinian to stand trial, convicted, and forced by his successor Pope Vigilius to abdicate again. He starved to death on an island in the Gulf of Gaeta.

John XVIII (1003 - 1009) didn’t do much that survived in the records, but it is believed that he resigned and lived out the last years of his life in a monastery.

Benedict IX easily had the most confusing pontificate in history. He served as pope three times: he was elected, ejected, returned, abdicated, deposed, returned again, ejected again, and eventually excommunicated. Presumably at least one of his resignations may have been canonically valid, possibly even two.

Celestine V (1294) tried to rule while under the control of Charles II of Sicily, something he quickly determined wouldn’t be possible. Rather than serve as little more than a figurehead for secular powers, he simply abdicated the papal office after only 5 months. This resignation helped establish as a matter of church law that a pope may freely resign his office.

Gregory XII (1406 - 1417) was another pope who resigned for the greater good of the church. He reigned during the Western Schism and at the time there were two other rivals claiming the papacy, both with genuine support among various churches and secular powers. He agreed to abide by the decision of the Council of Constance with just one condition: that he be permitted to officially convene it. This condition was granted, thus establishing the validity to his claim to the papacy, and he resigned so that the council could elect Martin V as his successor. Gregory was the last pope to resign his office.

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< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/28/2010 10:24:46 AM >

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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 4/12/2010 4:18:06 PM   
pahunkboy


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Man oh man check out huff.

2nd in command.

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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 4/12/2010 4:22:39 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

In my opinion, the resignation of the pope would do little to change things.  As pointed out, these atrocities have been occuring under the reign of previous popes as well.   It would be better if Benedict would grow a pair and get his house in order.  It would be a pretty simple thing to strip these priests of their priesthood and turn them over to civil authorities.  At very least, send them to a cloistered order and keep them away from children.  The Church has laws and has remedies within its own law.  I don't understand what these popes are afraid of.

Showing signs of weakness to temporal as opposed to Godly authority, most likely. The Vatican's had a bee in its bonnet about that one since the fall of the western empire, which seems to have blossomed into a fullblown psychosis since the reformation.

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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 4/12/2010 4:59:17 PM   
Jeffff


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He should be fired.

He lied on his application and falsified hie resume.

So much for the infallibility angle

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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 4/12/2010 5:01:46 PM   
Moonhead


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I like that idea a lot.

Didn't he only become infallible after he got the job, though?

(And now I've got Father Jack's funeral going through my head...)

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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 4/12/2010 5:06:48 PM   
Jeffff


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Assuming he became infallible afterwords, he should have recognized his short comings and publicly announced them.

He could then have apologized and perhaps gone into rehab, all would have been forgiven.

Since he didn't do those things, he has violated the spirit of the office and is quite possibly a minion of Satan.

It isn't easy being the College of Cardinals, but management never is.

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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 4/12/2010 5:09:25 PM   
pahunkboy


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resume fraud?


Lay Pope cant come to the phone right now.

He is very busy.   He is very very very --ah shit

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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 4/12/2010 5:53:14 PM   
barelynangel


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I don't see how the Pope resigning would do anything. That would mean that the Cardinals would have to acknowledge or decide his handling of this matter was wrong and have a overall consensus of all the cardinals eligible to vote in order for this to be a major concept in the election of the new Pope. At least i believe that's how it works. So to me, this would mean that the Cardinals in the majority would have to concede that this Pope is handling the manner incorrectly before this becomes a matter they would base an election of the new Pope on -- to me. .

But just because the Pope would choose to resign doesn't mean the incoming Pope would somehow handle things differently.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 4/12/2010 6:01:50 PM >


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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 4/12/2010 5:57:00 PM   
Jeffff


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That's what I meant about "management". That was only partially a smart ass remark.

The Holy See is just like the board of directors at a corpora ion that rubber stamp the CEO's plans.

If they wanted to. they could man up and deal.

They won't

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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 4/12/2010 5:59:46 PM   
pahunkboy


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Well- a little honey can go a long way.

lets see-  strip him grease him tie him-- outside near an orange blossem grove.  and then form a committee to free him.

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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 4/13/2010 12:31:42 AM   
adx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Nah, don't let ratzinger resign, let him be investigated , extradited and stand trial in the relevant countries for his part in covering up crimes or otherwise perverting the course of justice.




Who has the authority? He is the head of a sovrin nation remember the Vatican is its own nation what country will he be extradited to? He is seen as next to God by more then 1 billion people you may well be hard pressed to find a government that could perhaps try and make some legal claim against him and not suffer a huge backlash form its citizens.      

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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 4/13/2010 12:33:51 AM   
Smutmonger


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I dunno-it's fun to see "Darth Sidious" as the head of the catholic church.

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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 4/13/2010 1:46:17 AM   
CountrySong


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Why should the pope resign. A few kids got hurt. How many kids are in the Catholic Church that do not abused by priests? Hundreds of millions!
How many kids don't become murderers, drug users, etc because they have a stable guiding principle in their life like the Catholic Church. How many kids and other people did not die today because the Catholic Church had releif workers and provided aid for those kids. (Look up Mother Teresa, the Knights of Columbus, Catholic Relief Society, etc)
As for protecting the priests. Get over it! It happens in every faith. For those of you who do not believe it then please look up the history of the Hari Krishnas, Mormons, and Buddists. Heck, look in your own back yard at the developementally disabled and something called the Community Protection Program.
The Catholic Church has a long history of moral failure within it's ranks but it also has a long history of moral success. It is made up of people and people will never be perfect! It is also based on forgiveness and second chances. Even a mass murderer can get pardoned for his sins so why not a priest.
It is easy to cast stones, not take personal responsibility, and blaim others. Why don't the parents form a website dedicated to tracking these priests and notifying parishners in those churches that they move the priests to. For that matter why didn't the parents protect them in the first place? Answer - because they were foolish enough to believe that everyone who is a priest is trust worthy! How dumb can you get.
Is it bad that children get abused physically, mentally, and sexually - absolutely yes! It is also bad that subs get abused and often their little ones with them. Do we rally around that? Do we stand at our club doors and events while asking are you being abused or are your little ones. Do we hand out domestic violence flyers at play parties? When things are discovered do we see to it that the people involved are prosecuted to the max? Based on what I've seen the BDSM community is the last group that can "cast the first stone" on any form of abuse.
Let's clean up our own mess before we start telling others how to clean up theirs.
PS - yes I am an Ex-Catholic and child abuse survivor (and no it was not a priest)! 

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RE: Can a pope resign from office? - 4/13/2010 8:39:24 AM   
reynardfox


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Never mind the pedos, when are they going to get round putting things right about the Crusades? Salladin was very good about it, but really, the mess they left behind...

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