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I think the problem was not only that he only spent a few seconds on the Western aspect, and when he said that the Taliban knew no more about human well being than about nuclear physics, he didn't mention the West as well.

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Now, the irony, from my perspective is that the only people who seem to generally agree with me and who think that there are right and wrong answers to moral questions are religious demagogues of one form or another.

And of course they think they have right answers to moral questions because they got these answers from a voice in a whirlwind, not because they made an intelligent analysis of the causes and condition of human and animal well-being.

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The biggest issue I have with the idea that there is any objective standard of well being is that there's really no 'typical' person. That thread I linked you to in CMail shows that pretty clearly - the situation in which one person would thrive another would suffer in, and saying 'you can choose to do whatever you want' completely ignores the social and cultural aspect - the damage done by following your true nature, and being ostracized for it. Harris says he believes that it should be a womans' choice to wear "a veil or a funny hat or whatever" but the fact that he even compares it to a "funny hat" means that he is implicitly devaluing her choice.

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ORIGINAL: Silence8

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I'll tell you honestly, I've seen quite a few young women here wear the hijab, al-amira or shayla style and be quite flirty with it. I used to go to middle eastern shisha bars and see the girls who didn't have to wear the head scarfs chose to wear it sometimes as a form of play, like denial. My ex used to say it looked like a French headscarf and could be seductive... as always, YMMV.

I was thinking of mentioning something to this effect, that, if we really want to understand this culture, we need to understand their point of view. And it's true that creating a mystery out of the female sex only heightens the attraction. S/M, after all, probably feeds off some of the same motivations as in a lesser developed physics-ignorant culture. [I always forget how to make that smiley face that smirks.]

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

Respect for the beliefs of others is routinely touted as a good thing. But the consequences of this view are far from satisfying when those beliefs include "honor killings" and other excesses. A reasonable person senses that there has to be a line somewhere.

In this TED talk, Sam Harris suggests how to define that line.

It's often said that science cannot give us a foundation for morality and human values because science deals with facts, and facts and values seem to belong to different spheres. It's often thought that there's no description of the way the world is that can tell us how the world ought to be. But I think this is quite clearly untrue. Values are a certain kind of fact. They are facts about the well-being of conscious creatures.

Enjoy and comment.

K.

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ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

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ORIGINAL: Sanity
Through hindsight I could foresee science giving marching orders to Gestapo-like agents "for the good of the planet" or "the greater good of humanity" that would have no bearing on what spiritual humans with actual hearts would consider true morality.

Under exactly what real-world circumstances does science give "marching orders" to Gestapo-like agents?

In thinking of the best way to perform the operation, I discovered, to my chagrin, that I did not have a vessel large enough to contain a whole brain. Expecting the natives to appear every hour, most likely with grave intentions, I gave up, not without regret, the idea of preserving the Polynesian's brain but not the chance to obtain a preparation of the larynx with all the muscles, the tongue, etc., as I had promised my former teacher, Professor H. now living in Strasbourg, the larynx of a dark man with all the muscles. Preparing anatomical instruments and a jug with spirit, I returned to Boy's room and cut out the larynx with the tongue and all the muscles. A bit of skin from the forehead and head with hair went into my collection. Olsson, shaking with his fear of the dead man, was holding a candle and Boy's head. As I was cutting the plexus brachialis, Boy's hand made a small movement and Olsson, mortally afraid that I was cutting a man still alive, dropped the candle, and we were left in darkness.

In the morgue the body was viciously mutilated: the head, hands and feet removed and only the torso and limbs were left to bury. However, on the same night as the interment, two groups planned to exhume even these remains. Discovering their rivals had beaten them to the body, the leader of the other group smashed down the door to the morgue where the remains had been removed, only to discover 'a few particles of flesh' remained.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

Human beings have such a powerful need to feel good about themselves that they will routinely advance some "good" as a justification for their acts of disrespect, cruelty, and mayhem. But this is doomed to the same failure that besets all of the ego's attempts at perfection. Sometimes we are not good. And when we rationalize our actions to suppress the feeling that they are wrong because we perceive them to be necessary, we lead ourselves to believe in all manner of heartless notions of "good" (in particular the quaint fantasy of a "higher good") which would not confuse us if we could just accept that sometimes we choose to do things that are fundamentally wrong when we are faced with a choice between two evils (kill one man, or let ten die instead).

K.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

Yes, that is true. But choosing the lesser evil, and living with it, is a different proposition from pretending to ourselves that we are being righteous.

K.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

The possibly interesting point here is, the purpose of the alliance is mutual security. Without it, they are clearly all at risk. The matter of their differing social customs is a non-issue in that context, and pandering to their need to feel righteous will serve only to accomplish their destruction.

K.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

The possibly interesting point here is, the purpose of the alliance is mutual security. Without it, they are clearly all at risk. The matter of their differing social customs is a non-issue in that context, and pandering to their need to feel righteous will serve only to accomplish their destruction.

K.