What is "submission"? (Full Version)

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heartfeltsub -> What is "submission"? (3/28/2010 5:43:36 PM)

Recently in another thread that i started Knight of Mists and myself were addressing the concept of what constitutes submission. He made the following post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
... don't disagree, it doesn't "feel" like submission to me in those times when it is really easy for me. It just feels like me being me. And while that is fine, and i am actually doing what the other person is wanting me to do, it doesn't feed the part of me that needs to feel like i am "actually" submitting. That part only gets fed when i go past where i would go on my own, whether that be in levels of pain play or something else.



Submission comes in different forms.... I wrote this awhile back and something for you to consider.....

=====================================================================
I see alot of individuals focus on the idea that submission is to be distasteful or hard. That is not always the case. In my thought process... the acts of Submission are three basic groupings.

Passionate - These are the actions/behaviors a submissive takes great personally enjoyment in doing them. If able to, a submissive would choose to do them often.

Indifference - These are the actions/behaviors a submissive takes that provide no measurable affect upon them, emotionally or otherwise. Sometimes these are just mindless habits.

Tolerate - These are the actions/behaviors a submissive takes mental and emotional effort to carry out. There is no emotional pleasure directly from the act/behavior. The only pleasure comes from the fulfillment gained in pleasing the Dominant in doing the act/behavior. These are often the very actions/behaviors that a submissive will not choose to do.

There needs to be a balance between the three. To many Acts of Tolerance can eventually lead to distress with the submissives emotional state. It is actually the Acts of Passion that balance this from happening. Now every person is different and even the individual will be in different states that would deteremine where the balance is.

However, the submission is to the authority of doing which acts and when! The good dominants seeks to maintain a balance... whatever the balance happens to be. Some will micro-manage othes are more macro in their approach. Take note, that submissives are either like to be micro-managed or macroly managed as well. So finding a compatiability in this regard is rather important to say the least!
===================================================================================


In the end.... I think within the context of your relationship... you and your Dominant to be will need to find the balance that enriches the relationship... which very much another thread (grin)


It is a line of thought that i would like to explore.

i am a very service oriented, highly obedient person. i actually enjoy cleaning a house, doing laundry, cooking, and most domestic activities. i enjoy taking care of the people in my life, whether that person is my Dominant/Master or not. i enjoy a certain level of pain in play and can take it even when i am merely bottoming and in complete control of where the scene will go. None of those things feel like submission to me. i like a variety of sexual play and have very few limits once a sexual relationship has been formed, but again, most of it doesn't feel like submission to me. They just feel like me being me. Is the Dominant/Master in question getting his laundry done, ironed, house cleaned, food cooked, drink refilled, etc.? Yes, so i could see where it would be considered service, but it doesn't feel like submission.

The only times that i really feel like i am in fact submitting is when what is asked of me is outside of the realm of my comfort zone, when what is asked of me is not something i would do on my own. Going to a level of pain that i wouldn't go to on my own, doing an act of service that i would really rather not do, exposing an emotional truth about myself that i would really rather not share, all of those when done in response to a command feel like actual submission to me. While all the other myriad of things that i do for my Dominant do not.

i know, intellectually, that i am doing his will by doing his laundry, having his coffee ready for him when he gets up, ironing his clothes so that he can sleep a few more minutes, etc. So, intellectually i am submitting to his will. But the motivation for those actions are less a matter of submitting to his will, and more a matter of me being me.

So when Knight posted his comment to the other thread, i am having a hard time wrapping my head around the first two types of submission he mentioned actually being submission because they don't feel like submission to me. i realize that my point of view may be skewed so i am asking for insights from others.

What is submission to you? What makes an act feel like submission to you or do you not worry about how the act makes you feel? Is it actually submission even if it doesn't feel like submission and would you be satisified if none of your actions or your s-types actions were never of the third type of submission that Knight mentioned? Or do those kinds of actions flip your switch (on either side of the kneel), do they just add to a feeling of being in control or being controlled?

Thank you in advance for your replies.
heartfelt



leadership527 -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/28/2010 6:06:51 PM)

Heh, well there is a simple scientific answer to the question, "What is submission?" but it's way too ordinary to be kinky and not subject to lots of hair splitting.

For carol, she doesn't ever, to my knowledge, FEEL submissive. She just goes about her day leading her life in the way which seems normal and sensible to her. None of it "flips her switch". Carol simply has a submissive personality... she prefers to obey rather than command. She doesn't get any thrill out of obeying per se, although she does enjoy being pleasing to me. From her standpoint, all the better if she can be pleasing to me in a way which is also pleasing to her.

In terms of Knight's comment, I doubt there are "three groups". There is a spectrum of stuff... some of which she likes more, others less. And yeah, if if I make her life an unmitigated hell, I'm pretty sure she'll stop submitting and/or being my wife.

Insofar as "feeling like I'm in control", I'm always in control and always have been. What is more in doubt is this question of absolute obedience or M/s. And I feel like she is "absolutely" obedient when I cannot feel the edges of her resistance. Like her, I see it is as ideal if that obedience comes at no cost to her. I deliberately push her boundaries to encourage more flexibility and I am pleased with her when she learns to bend further than she had previously, but I dislike the emotional pain that has to ensue for that to occur. But, no pain, no gain as they say. And yes, for me at least, it DOES flip my switch when I feel like she is my slave rather than my submissive.



Mercnbeth -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/28/2010 6:22:08 PM)

quote:

What is submission to you?


following/backing up/obeying the dominant one (or ones) as they lead the way...as they see fit.

quote:

What makes an act feel like submission to you or do you not worry about how the act makes you feel? Is it actually submission even if it doesn't feel like submission and would you be satisified if none of your actions or your s-types actions were never of the third type of submission that Knight mentioned? Or do those kinds of actions flip your switch (on either side of the kneel), do they just add to a feeling of being in control or being controlled?


this slave doesn't interpret submission as a feeling. this slave can relate to it as part of a relationship dynamic, a personality trait, a sexual identity...even as a conscious choice between actions, but this slave has never perceived submission as a feeling.



graceadieu -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/28/2010 6:30:04 PM)

Personally, I don't really want or need to "feel submissive" by doing things that are difficult or uncomfortable. In the bedroom that can be hot, but in my day-to-day life I'm perfectly happy serving my partner and making sure he's as happy and comfortable as I can reasonably manage. Service and devotion make me warm and fuzzy. [:)]

I don't know that I'd be happy in a relationship where I was regularly made to do things that were outright unpleasant, at least if it was for the sake of "feeling D/s" rather than personal growth.



SirRussellP -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/28/2010 6:56:13 PM)

I can't answer the question since I have very little submissive in me, but I did have my slave write what it meant to her.  I will share see it this is close to what you as a sub/slave feel

What being owned means to me     Being owned means I do not have any choices, I have given them all to him, trusting that he has my very best interests at heart, that he loves me, that he wants to see me grow and be the best I can be.   Well that is not strictly true. I do have a choice. The choice to be his and that choice will always remain.   It is more than being a submissive. A submissive gives power and control when she wants to. Being his slave means I give that power and control totally 24/7 even when I don’t feel like it.   It doesn’t mean I am powerless though. In some ways I have more power. As long as I act in his guidelines and obey the rules both written and unwritten, show him the respect and love he deserves and has earned I am free to do as I please. Free to dress sexily and be attractive without any feelings of guilt or that I am a cheap slut or whore. Free to be myself, free to be proud of who and what I am and who I belong to. Free to rest in his protection, to know he will always be there for me, to care for me, to love me, to stand between the world and me. Free to have my own opinions, to be able to express my thoughts and desires without fear of being ridiculed, talked down to, ignored. Free to ask for what I want and know that if it is within reason and for my benefit it will be granted.   Being owned means that I am treasured, cared for, desired, wanted, needed, loved. It means I know I will be picked up when I am feeling down, I will be grounded when I fly too high or get overconfident. It means I will be protected and never harmed. It means I will be taken to places I have only ever dreamt of, live the life I was born to lead. It means many of the day-to-day worries and trials are no longer mine, they are his and I can be free from stress and serve him better.   It does not mean I am free from all responsibilities. I am responsible for looking after his property when he is not around. Responsible for keeping him happy, serving his needs, making sure he is cared for. I am responsible for making him proud of me at all times. Whether at work, with family out in a nilla social I must be the best I can, behave in a way that makes him proud of me and shows me off in the best light.   It helps me to be a better person. To think before acting, to always present myself well, to consider how he will view each and every action and reaction I make even if he is not there.   It means I am never alone even when physically I am. I am part of him, his property, and his slave. He is mine, My Master, my rock and my owner.. It means I can feel his presence at all times, comforting, loving, and yes controlling.   I am not owned by him because I have to be, because I am forced to be but because I want to be and because it feels right, WE feel right together.



catize -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/28/2010 6:56:36 PM)

To me, submission is not defined by the tasks he requires, it is abiding by my agreement to accept his authority. So if he decides we are going to do something that I enjoy, it is, after all, his will.



littlewonder -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/28/2010 7:02:16 PM)

submission = yielding the will of another

It's that simple for me



RCdc -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/29/2010 1:10:33 AM)

Submission isn't a feeling.
Submission is obeying Masters will and desires.

the.dark.



jbcurious -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/29/2010 1:54:25 AM)

Simply obeying or doing what I'm told doesn't feel submissive to me. I've spent my life doing that with parents, teachers, bosses... I do what's expected.

There's no sense of pleasure or of being pleasing, only in accomplishing the task before me.

I think that's why sessions or play doesn't work for me. I can do what I'm directed to do, but I'm only going through the motions...I haven't become engaged and my thoughts and mind are somewhere else.

When I feel connected to someone, have admiration, respect and love for them...this all changes and I engage... I'm focused on what I'm doing knowing that I'm pleasing and taking pleasure in that. The simplest act can bring on an enormous feeling of joy because it's what he desires.

I understand that in day to day life I'm not always going to feel engaged as I carry out tasks...but I live for those moments of complete surrender...of losing myself to his desires... of becoming completly his in mind and body...that's when I feel submissive.



JhonDean -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/29/2010 2:52:02 AM)

Hello everyone, a brief comment if you will.
Submission for me is a state of mind, a state of being that has very little to do with obeying.
The obeying is only the outward manifesting of deep-seated needs desires and appreciations
for the opportunity to serve with esteem and affection as cuckold of a distinctly different and
superior in comparison woman I admired and respected.



sunshinemiss -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/29/2010 3:07:48 AM)

Submission is a state of mind brought on by deep meditation...



heartfeltsub -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/29/2010 3:15:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Heh, well there is a simple scientific answer to the question, "What is submission?" but it's way too ordinary to be kinky and not subject to lots of hair splitting.

For carol, she doesn't ever, to my knowledge, FEEL submissive. She just goes about her day leading her life in the way which seems normal and sensible to her. None of it "flips her switch". Carol simply has a submissive personality... she prefers to obey rather than command. She doesn't get any thrill out of obeying per se, although she does enjoy being pleasing to me. From her standpoint, all the better if she can be pleasing to me in a way which is also pleasing to her.

In terms of Knight's comment, I doubt there are "three groups". There is a spectrum of stuff... some of which she likes more, others less. And yeah, if if I make her life an unmitigated hell, I'm pretty sure she'll stop submitting and/or being my wife.

Insofar as "feeling like I'm in control", I'm always in control and always have been. What is more in doubt is this question of absolute obedience or M/s. And I feel like she is "absolutely" obedient when I cannot feel the edges of her resistance. Like her, I see it is as ideal if that obedience comes at no cost to her. I deliberately push her boundaries to encourage more flexibility and I am pleased with her when she learns to bend further than she had previously, but I dislike the emotional pain that has to ensue for that to occur. But, no pain, no gain as they say. And yes, for me at least, it DOES flip my switch when I feel like she is my slave rather than my submissive.


Leadership,

Thank you for your reply, to address the part that i bolded in black when i am describing feeling submissive, i think i am not making good use of my words. What i am describing as feeling submissive might be better put as i know that  am being pleasing, similar to what you described Carol feeling. But for me it goes beyond that, i know that i am submitting to his will. i am not looking for, nor would i put up with a life that is unmitigated hell, but in those times when you ask Carol to bend more than she is currently bending, those would be the times, that for me, bowing the knee, would reinforce in me that i was owned, it would give me that "feeling of actually being submissive" and would make the hard choices easier because it would strengthen in me the connection to him, reinforcing the dynamics of the relationship. i also prefer to obey than to lead, but i also needs times that reinforce the dynamics of the relationship, to feed a part of me that needs to "feel submissive".

To address the part that i bolded in green, that is exactly what i am talking about but from an s-types prespective. i am not looking for constant pain and pushing, but obedience that is always easy for me, doesn't feed me as much as having to do some things that are hard, that may cause me a wee bit of emotional pain. It reinforces for me the dynamic of the relationship.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt




heartfeltsub -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/29/2010 3:26:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

What is submission to you?


following/backing up/obeying the dominant one (or ones) as they lead the way...as they see fit.

quote:

What makes an act feel like submission to you or do you not worry about how the act makes you feel? Is it actually submission even if it doesn't feel like submission and would you be satisified if none of your actions or your s-types actions were never of the third type of submission that Knight mentioned? Or do those kinds of actions flip your switch (on either side of the kneel), do they just add to a feeling of being in control or being controlled?


this slave doesn't interpret submission as a feeling. this slave can relate to it as part of a relationship dynamic, a personality trait, a sexual identity...even as a conscious choice between actions, but this slave has never perceived submission as a feeling.


Beth,

Thank you for your reply. There are a couple of things that i would like to ask. Thank you for your definition of submissive. May i ask when you have said that you respond submissively to everyone, it that what you are meaning, that you would follow the will of everyone.

Also, i realized that i didn't explain well what i meant. If you could, could you read my reply to Leadership, which i hope did a better job of explaining what i meant by the term "feeling submissive" and explain if that is part of what you meant by part of a relationship dynamic. Or maybe it is the last thing that you mentioned, it is when i am making a conscious choice between actions and that is what i have been calling "feeling submissive"

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt



heartfeltsub -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/29/2010 3:31:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

Personally, I don't really want or need to "feel submissive" by doing things that are difficult or uncomfortable. In the bedroom that can be hot, but in my day-to-day life I'm perfectly happy serving my partner and making sure he's as happy and comfortable as I can reasonably manage.  Service and devotion make me warm and fuzzy. [:)]

I don't know that I'd be happy in a relationship where I was regularly made to do things that were outright unpleasant, at least if it was for the sake of "feeling D/s" rather than personal growth.


Graceadieu,

Thank you for your reply. The part that i bolded is part of what i am trying to describe that warm and fuzzy. i do get fed, to a degree from serving a partner and making a partner as happy and comfortable as possible. i am also not saying nor am i looking for a relationship where i was made to do a bunch of meaningless things just because they were unpleasant, like some sort of test, but if in areas of personal growth, i am asked to go beyond my personal comfort zone, it does reinforce for me the feeling of actually being owned or that i am actively submitting my will to his will.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt



heartfeltsub -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/29/2010 3:41:02 AM)

SirRussellP,

Thank you for your and your slave's reply. It is a beautiful testimony to your and her relationship.

heartfelt



heartfeltsub -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/29/2010 3:46:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

To me, submission is not defined by the tasks he requires, it is abiding by my agreement to accept his authority. So if he decides we are going to do something that I enjoy, it is, after all, his will.


Catize,

Thank you for your reply. i agree with your definition and don't have a problem with your second sentence. my question would be, does doing things that you enjoy, does that feed you as a person as much as doing something that you don't necessarily enjoy. That is at the heart of my questions. When i am doing the things that come easily, or that i enjoy, although they give me a sense a peace and enjoyment, they don't seem to feed a part of me that from time to time needs to go past what i would do on my own, that reinforces that i am not the one in authority in the relationship which i have maybe not wisely called "feeling submissive". Do you have times like that, or is that not something that you need in the way i was trying to describe?

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt



heartfeltsub -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/29/2010 3:51:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

submission = yielding the will of another

It's that simple for me



Littlewonder,

Thank you for your reply. i get your definition, i guess that also leads to part of my confusion or question, am i really yielding to the will of another, when i am cooking or cleaning, or doing laundry, etc. All those things are things i would do anyway. It is actually harder for me to not be allowed to do those things. That would in fact be one of the hard things that would make me "feel submissive" when he would tell me that i couldn't clean or do service and i had to just sit while others were working arnd me.

So that is my actual question, in doing the things that i would do otherwise, am i really submitting to his will or authority or am i just being me. And it maybe what Knight described, that is it actually both, that i have identified who i am and i am living from that place which causes me to submit to another's will or authority.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt



heartfeltsub -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/29/2010 3:55:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

Submission isn't a feeling.
Submission is obeying Masters will and desires.

the.dark.


the.dark,

Thank you for your reply. i can see from the replies that my choice of words wasn't the best (grinning). i hope that you will read some of my replies to previous posters and post again. Yours is one of the opinions that i was really hoping for. i can and do obey my Dominant's will and desires. However there were times when doing his will or desire feeds a deeper place in me than at other times. It is those times that i am describing as "feeling submissive".

Thank you again,
heartfelt



delicatelydirty -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/29/2010 3:58:51 AM)

Submission is a part of me, even when I have no one to serve I am still submissive, that is what is in my heart and in my soul, my greatest pleasure comes from pleasing another, in whatever form that takes.

This has caused me issues in the past as I struggled to separate my need to please people from standing up for what is mine and the strangest thing is that since I have learnt to stand up for what is mine, my desire and need to submit has grown. But now I have a much clearer idea of the type of person to whom I can truly open up to



heartfeltsub -> RE: What is "submission"? (3/29/2010 4:01:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious

Simply obeying or doing what I'm told doesn't feel submissive to me. I've spent my life doing that with parents, teachers, bosses... I do what's expected.

There's no sense of pleasure or of being pleasing, only in accomplishing the task before me.

I think that's why sessions or play doesn't work for me. I can do what I'm directed to do, but I'm only going through the motions...I haven't become engaged and my thoughts and mind are somewhere else.

When I feel connected to someone, have admiration, respect and love for them...this all changes and I engage... I'm focused on what I'm doing knowing that I'm pleasing and taking pleasure in that. The simplest act can bring on an enormous feeling of joy because it's what he desires.

I understand that in day to day life I'm not always going to feel engaged as I carry out tasks...but I live for those moments of complete surrender...of losing myself to his desires... of becoming completly his in mind and body...that's when I feel submissive.


Exactly, exactly what i was trying to describe. Thank you for your reply jbcurious. You put it so much better than i did. i obey, i do what is expected, but i have only made a choice to be in a relationship with a particular person. And i need those moments of complete surrender.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt



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