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Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 3/31/2010 6:30:15 AM   
BoiJen


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Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100331/ap_on_re_eu/eu_the_vatican_s_defense

"Court documents obtained Tuesday by The Associated Press show that Vatican lawyers plan to argue that the pope has immunity as head of state, that American bishops who oversaw abusive priests weren't employees of the Vatican, and that a 1962 document is not the "smoking gun" that provides proof of a cover-up.

"....."If Pope Benedict XVI is ordered to testify by a U.S. court, foreign courts could feel empowered to order discovery against the president of the United States regarding, for example, such issues as CIA renditions," Lena wrote in a 2008 brief.

".....There's a general consensus among legal scholars that an employee is someone who works for the employer, who controls the details of the work. Attorneys for the Vatican are expected to argue that diocesan bishops do not work for the pope, and that the Holy See does not exercise the day-to-day control over their work necessary to create an employment relationship."




This astounds me. One that the Vatican blatantly is going to ignore that mandates by the Catholic Church's highest authority do have daily impact in Catholic Churches and priests here in the U.S. and that in every developed country on the planet, overseeing companies are responsible for their employees even when the boss doesn't see them on a day to day basis.

The other thing that amazes me is how the Vatican expects that comparing an investigation of thousands of reports of sexual abuse by priests (who can easily be seen as foreign diplomats of the Vatican) and the resulting law suits and depositions, of a country that holds no military, could be compared to revealing military or domestic intelligence information from the United States' President.

I'm simply astounded at the audacity in which the Vatican takes no responsibility for their representation here in the United States and around the world and how any individual can still find the Vatican an acceptable governing body for the Catholic faith.

Fuckin fun conversation for the morning.

boi


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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 3/31/2010 6:55:27 AM   
LadyEllen


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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I seem to remember - and this is going a long time back now - that Church of England clergy are not employed by the Church. It could be that model was inherited from the RC Church, but then again we have a huge amount of church law that supposedly governs this stuff. Clergy receive a stipend rather than wages, plus accomodation under some deal that says they are ordained by the Church and financially supported by the Church and expected to adhere to the Church, but are not employed as such.

All that said though and its accuracy being open to question, it doesnt make for the best PR for the RC church now, after decades of cover ups and then cover ups of the cover ups and then denial about the whole thing, to now try to further evade liability by recourse to legal defences that only serves to make the whole organisation look bad, and though its not fashionable perhaps and though I dont support the RC church in any way, there are many priests who however misguidedly perhaps, do try to do their jobs properly and honestly.

E

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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 3/31/2010 7:03:03 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Well every year- we hear more and more of this type of behavior.

I say- take their assets and send them to Siberia.

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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 3/31/2010 7:46:08 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		For the pope to claim immunity as head of state, does he not thereby confirm the defendants to be agents of his state? And thereby it matters little if they are employees or not? Meanwhile they cannot be diplomats and claim diplomatic immunity unless they have been accredited as diplomats by the Vatican. Since (I would wager) the defendants will all be US citizens, they cannot be Vatican diplomats as well, owing their allegiance to the US and so unable to fulfil allegiance to the Vatican?

E



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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 3/31/2010 7:52:22 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Yeah, that's pretty lame. Priests go where they're told, do what they're told. Not employees--servants.

Geez.

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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 3/31/2010 8:28:51 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		if it bothered people- they would quit funding it.

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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 3/31/2010 8:49:19 AM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		That's slowely what's been happening, hence the Come Home Catholics ad campaign.

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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 3/31/2010 9:03:14 AM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

if it bothered people- they would quit funding it.


Maybe they would if they also new the truth, I bet many don't


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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 3/31/2010 9:20:31 AM   
pahunkboy


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Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I can almost accept a few of this early on.  (tho not totally)

But they have had decades to clean house.

Decades.

So- any of us peons would be fried.      Maybe we just wont send in police protection and let the victims take their best shot.

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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 3/31/2010 5:12:08 PM   
Aneirin


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Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Nations that rise to strength and die are known through history for the history they created famously, and infamously, but those regimes have died. New regimes come into power and do just the same as history has shown us,the Vatican is something different, for it has held power for centuries, power that is steeped in the blood of nations and so many other wrong doings made right because of their position, it is time the Vatican was brought to book and there destroyed or dissolved, but before they go, they can apologise individually to every nation the Catholic church has robbed and destroyed in the name of the church of Rome.

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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 3/31/2010 5:54:05 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
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Status: offline 		So the guy who was just being a good German when he was in the Hitler Youth is now just being a good Catholic?

This is complete bullshit. A religious institution should hold itself to standards.




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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 3/31/2010 8:59:25 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		The whole situation is horrible but unfortunately not surprising if you have been following the abuse cases and reports.

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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 3/31/2010 9:02:25 PM   
Smutmonger


Posts: 995
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Status: offline 		Nice, perhaps we can revoke thier tax free status?

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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 3/31/2010 11:24:48 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		I've been for that since they started trying to influence elections.

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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 4/1/2010 8:38:14 AM   
GotSteel


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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
Decades.

No, quite a bit longer than that. This has been an issue for nearly two millennia.


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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 4/1/2010 4:15:33 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

I'm simply astounded at the audacity in which the Vatican takes no responsibility for their representation here in the United States and around the world and how any individual can still find the Vatican an acceptable governing body for the Catholic faith.


I'm not astounded at all. I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic school and I noticed enough hypocrisy, judgement and denial to last me a lifetime.

This IS the Catholic Church's Modus Operandi.

- LA

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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 4/1/2010 4:58:44 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

I'm simply astounded at the audacity in which the Vatican takes no responsibility for their representation here in the United States and around the world and how any individual can still find the Vatican an acceptable governing body for the Catholic faith.


I'm not astounded at all. I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic school and I noticed enough hypocrisy, judgement and denial to last me a lifetime.

This IS the Catholic Church's Modus Operandi.

- LA


LOL.

Yup.  Been there.

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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 4/1/2010 5:30:06 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		There are serious reasons that many people who were raised in the Catholic Church call themselves "Recovered Catholics" and spend years in therapy as adults.

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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 4/1/2010 7:21:41 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Roman Catholicism influenced my early life, the fuckers christened me, for fuck's sake, but as soon as I was able to read and discover, I learned to hate that religion, not so much the believers mind, they are just lead, but the vatican and the power it has held for centuries, all that I read, I wondered just what was godly about all that. Roman Catholicism was my access to the Christian god and I could not see god in that religion, their history apalled me that much. At the time, if god acted through the catholic church, then I had no time for god. Later I came to realise the vatican existed for personal power and influence, it uses the word of god to further it's own aims, then came my distrust of organised religion. Now I just deal with a spirituality that I am happy with, eclectic, but then eclectic is me.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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RE: Vatican Defence: The Priests Aren't Our Employees - 4/1/2010 8:57:02 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Aneirin, I understand your anger. My first experience with the cruelty and hypocrisy of the Catholicism was when a classmate of mine got kicked out of Catholic private school for getting herself pregnant. So here she was, 16, terrified and out on her ass. When her parents asked why she was being kicked out, she said that it was she would be a bad influence on the girls. And when her parents asked what they expected her to do for an education, they told her that she could go to the public school. The following year, four of us quit the private Catholic school to go join her at the public school.

And that is when I dumped religion all together. By 21 I was an atheist, but for a whole other set of reasons.

- LA

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