RE: The Corp tax rate is to HIGH...get real (Full Version)

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InvisibleBlack -> RE: The Corp tax rate is to HIGH...get real (4/1/2010 7:10:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

On these boards several have complained that the new tax rates is going to send their company into the red, even Boeing has joined the crowd.  But when they paid NO INCOME TAX in 2009 and got 132 million in tax payers money, me thinks they whine to much

"But Boeing’s complaint further rings hollow because the industry giant is among the largest U.S. companies that pay the least in corporate taxes. Conservatives complain about the high 35 percent U.S. corporate tax rate, but because of corporate welfare such as the prescription drug deduction, Boeing’s tax rate was just 3.2 percent averaged over the last 4 years and just 0.7 percent averaged from 2002 to 2007. And Boeing’s three-year effective tax rate from 2001-2003 was -18.8 percent.
But also, according to Boeing’s 2009 annual report, the company paid no federal income tax in 2009 and actually received $132 million back from the IRS. And in 2008, Boeing paid just $44 million in federal income taxes while netting $2.7 billion in earnings that year"

And according to Business Week,the top 50 companies paid between 0.04 % to a high of 13% tax rate, not even close to the 35% they complain about. 

http://bwnt.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/corporate_taxes_2009/who_pays_the_least.asp

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/31/boeing-tax-break/

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2010/03/30/rx-subsidy/



Ummm ... the Business Week link you put up shows that Boeing paid 599 million in Federal taxes in 2009. The link to the annual report you put up shows that Boeing owes 396 million in Federal taxes in 2009 and that their "effective" income tax rate for that year was 22.9%.

Doing a quick search - I found a link on Forbes which claims that Boeing paid 400 million in taxes in 2009. It also has a pretty good run-down of why and how corporations pay what they pay.

Boeing may not be a very good example to use of corporations and their tax burden. Boeing has, relative to most companies, massive R&D expenditures which are all tax deductible or can be taken as tax credits, and these R&D write-offs can be saved up and deducted as needed against profits. Also, Boeing's income doesn't occur in a steady stream but is extremely choppy. Sell a couple of 787s one year and massive profits accrue. Sell no airplanes and do a lot of development the next and you'll post a huge loss. Win a government fighter plane contract and you've made billions. Lose a contract because budget cuts forced a program to be canceled and suddenly you've taken a huge loss.

It probably took Boeing a decade to develop the 787 Dreamliner - a period which would show (for that product) all costs and expenses and no revenue let alone profit. Once you've got the thing ready, you sell five in a year and then you've got huge revenue and apparent profit with little apparent cost. Carrying forward the development costs and writing off the R&D expenses and then reconciling that with the revenues likely makes Boeing's actual taxes a nightmare to follow. This is why they have a couple of pages discussing deferred tax assets and liabilities.

To judge Boeing you'd likely have to take some kind of average of their taxes vs. their costs and write-offs over a decade or two. Something like Wal-Mart or Costco might provide a more straightforward analysis of the "fairness" of corporations and the U.S. tax code.

Many companies paid no taxes last year since they earned no profits, and several huge companies - like Citibank or AIG - likely will not be paying taxes for years as they write off their losses from 2009 over the profits earned in the next decade. I know GE paid no taxes last year and likely won't this year based solely on the amount of losses GE Capital took.

Leaving all of that aside, a savvy company does everything it can to shift things around so that they can recognize revenue in low tax countries (like say Ireland where the corporate tax is 12.5%) and recognize costs in higher tax countries (like the United States). So if you had a subsidiary in Ireland and the United States, you would put all your property in the name of the Irish company and then lease it back to the U. S. company. Those rental payments would then be recognized as revenue in Ireland (and profits on them taxed at 12.5%) and as costs in the US (and used to offset any profits made in the US which would be taxed at 35%).

This is part of why central planning rarely works as intended. Individuals, groups, companies, etc. react in ways you don't expect to avoid unpleasant effects.

[Edit: Ooops. I apologize. The Business Week article is listing taxes for the "latest year" they could find which, judging by Boeing's statement, was 2008's taxes. Still if they paid 599 million in 2008 I wouldn't exactly accuse them of paying "no taxes".]




housesub4you -> RE: The Corp tax rate is to HIGH...get real (4/2/2010 4:33:24 AM)

Actually it is Boeing's annual report saying they owed no taxes for 2009, not me accusing them.

Here is a link from the article of their annual report

http://www.envisionreports.com/ba/2010/27525ja10e/document_0/Boeing_AR_3-9-10_Preflighted.pdf#page=81

There deferred tax is listed but the about they had to pay in 2009 is nothing




DemandingLeader -> RE: The Corp tax rate is to HIGH...get real (4/2/2010 4:53:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckyman

In Obama's demopuke world, profits are EVIL.....


If they don't benefit ordinary Americans and their standard of living, then profits sure as hell aren't any good to the bulk of us.

So many times, so many ways, the little people were sold on benefiting the rich to ultimately help themselves, because, one day, they will be rich too.  I can't blame the masses for ultimately waking up to the fraud that lie of thinking was.  Pout if you want that the "old stories" are no longer effective.




InvisibleBlack -> RE: The Corp tax rate is to HIGH...get real (4/2/2010 5:36:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

Actually it is Boeing's annual report saying they owed no taxes for 2009, not me accusing them.

Here is a link from the article of their annual report

http://www.envisionreports.com/ba/2010/27525ja10e/document_0/Boeing_AR_3-9-10_Preflighted.pdf#page=81

There deferred tax is listed but the about they had to pay in 2009 is nothing



I don't want to get into a detailed analysis of Boeing's Annual Report but you're picking a single line out of a massive statement. The next two pages explain deferred tax assets and tax liabilities in a very cursory way. Their actual expected tax "Total Income Tax Expense" for 2009 is 396 million dollars and they have set aside a sum to pay this when their issues with the IRS for 2009 are completely resolved. If you look, they're still working on accurately estimating and paying their 2001 taxes.

I don't believe you're reading their shareholder report properly.




LadyEllen -> RE: The Corp tax rate is to HIGH...get real (4/2/2010 5:39:12 AM)

This is getting confusing - income tax expenses? is this the same as corporation tax (ie tax on profit) or "deducted at source" income taxes for their workers' salaries?

E




InvisibleBlack -> RE: The Corp tax rate is to HIGH...get real (4/2/2010 12:41:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

This is getting confusing - income tax expenses? is this the same as corporation tax (ie tax on profit) or "deducted at source" income taxes for their workers' salaries?

E


It's corporate tax (tax on profit). For book-keeping purposes "Income Tax Expenses" is the amount of tax owed for a calendar year, in this case 2009. However, that calender year doesn't necessarily match up with either the "tax year" (which starts on April 15) nor does it have to match of up with Boeing's "fiscal year" which may or may not line up with either the calendar year or the "tax year".

Income tax expenses are comprised of "current tax" and "deferred tax". Current Tax is pretty straightforward, it's revenue that was booked during the calendar year for which income tax is owed in that calendar year. Deferred tax is a bit trickier. It's income that was booked for accounting purposes during the calendar year but for which taxes are not owed during that calendar year. This is because the GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles) used do not match the IRS' reporting requirements and so revenues & expenses may not fall into the same time periods under both systems.

So for the revenue booked in 2009, Boeing owes 396 million dollars in taxes - none of which is due in the current year according to IRS regulations.

However, this does not mean that Boeing paid no taxes this year nor that they got a refund from the IRS or anything like that. This is because there were deferred taxes from calendar year 2008 (or potentially earlier) that would have to be paid in calendar year 2009. (The only year I'm aware the Boeing actually paid negative taxes was 2003 when they reached a major settlement with the IRS and were awarded billions in tax refunds for over-paying taxes in the late 90s.)

To quote Boeing:

quote:


Income Taxes

Provisions for federal, state, and non-U.S. income taxes are calculated on reported Earnings before
income taxes based on current tax law and also include, in the current period, the cumulative effect of
any changes in tax rates from those used previously in determining deferred tax assets and liabilities.
Such provisions differ from the amounts currently receivable or payable because certain items of
income and expense are recognized in different time periods for financial reporting purposes than for
income tax purposes.
Significant judgment is required in determining income tax provisions and
evaluating tax positions.


and

quote:


Income Taxes
We have recorded a net liability of $1,787 million at December 31, 2009 for uncertain
tax positions. For further discussion of these contingencies, see Note 5.


If you want to determine what Boeing actually paid in taxes in 2009 based on all income that was taxable in 2009, you need to look for "Income Taxes Payable". According to Boeing:

quote:


Income Tax Obligations
As of December 31, 2009, our total liability for income taxes payable,
including uncertain tax positions, was $1,009 million, of which $182 million we expect to pay in the next
twelve months. We are not able to reasonably estimate the timing of future cash flows related to the
remaining $827 million. Our income tax obligations are excluded from the table above. See Note 5.


So for calendar 2009, Boeing actually paid (or will pay in 2010 when it's due) 182 million dollars in taxes.

Looking at Note 5 - which is the auditors (Deloitte & Touche) statement on Income Tax, we find a line item on page 51 (the Consolidated Statements of Financial Position):

quote:


Income taxes payable 182

 
which matches what Boeing said earlier.

Corporate tax law is an amazingly tricky area and accurately determining what any company owes, paid or did not pay is nigh unto impossible with any precision. As you can see, Boeing themselves aren't sure of how much they currently owe, how much of the taxes they previously paid are correct, nor what their actual tax burden will be in the future - so they've set aside about 1.8 billion dollars to cover contingencies.

For what it's worth, Boeing isn't able to take advantage of the biggest loopholes in the tax codes because, as a defense contractor, they are unable to locate a majority of their operations overseas - it's illegal. They have to keep their operations on U. S. soil. So they cannot shift expenses to countries where the tax rates are lower (or non-existant) nor can they re-incorporate in some other country.

The companies that take the greatest advantage of off-shoring revenue are the big banks, since it's easy for them to move things around quickly and they have operations in every country in the world. None of them need to currently, however, since their operating losses for 2008 are so huge they'll be able to write them off against profits for the next decade.

Boeing's 2009 Annual Report is here:
http://www.envisionreports.com/ba/2010/27525ja10e/document_0/Boeing_AR_3-9-10_Preflighted.pdf

(As an aside - I hope that was intelligible. I'm not sure how clearly I'm portraying this stuff. I'm not an expert in corporate tax law - I'm just someone who works with financial statements on a semi-regular basis.)




LadyEllen -> RE: The Corp tax rate is to HIGH...get real (4/2/2010 2:07:22 PM)

Thanks IB - very clear and not that much different to here (or anywhere else I ever heard of)

E




housesub4you -> RE: The Corp tax rate is to HIGH...get real (4/6/2010 7:21:29 AM)

Well It seems Mobil posted 45 billion in profit and paid no income taxes to the USA, they paid other countries but none to the USA, but they gladly take our taxpayer money in the form of subsidies

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/06/exxon-tax/

Exxon tries to limit the tax pain with the help of 20 wholly owned subsidiaries domiciled in the Bahamas, Bermuda and the Cayman Islands that (legally) shelter the cash flow from operations in the likes of Angola, Azerbaijan and Abu Dhabi. No wonder that of $15 billion in income taxes last year, Exxon paid none of it to Uncle Sam, and has tens of billions in earnings permanently reinvested overseas.





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