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RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 7:44:10 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Easy to say from the comfort of your loungeroom in the midst of civilised society. Considering much of the D/s dynamic resonates from base, primal needs, how do you think the "no gender is superior" theory might play out in a world where law and order had broken down altogether and replaced with basic instincts, which usually begin with "survival of the fittest"?

Yes, indeed, posturing is easy from a keyboard but may I remind you that 'lounging' is not gender specific. If civilization as I know it crumpled, I admit I probably would not survive. But I would bet there would be a fair number of men who die before I do.
quote:

. And now I'm wondering about the prospect of 'dominant women' in Islamic nations - THAT sounds like "a bunch of hooey"....

Just because some women are not allowed to exhibit their true natures doesn't mean they are not capable of it once they are free to do so.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 8:03:21 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		I don't feel D/s has any correlation to business or politics. If someone is forced by their culture to obey rules that they hate, there is no possibility of them having a consensusal D/s relationship. They aren't giving their power, it has simply been stolen from them. If we did have social disorder like you describe, I'd probably be more prepared than the majority of guys. I know how to raise animals and crops, shoot a gun, some martial arts, and other skills that would be useful in that environment, and I know some people who live away from urban centers if I had any advanced warning or could make my way there.

(in reply to ShoreBound149)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 8:03:30 AM   
afkarr


Posts: 328
Joined: 1/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout


For centuries society has dictated that men would occupy the Dominant role, so there are more Dominant males than females.  With those boundaries crumbling we are seeing more and more women embrace a more natural balance in their true natures.  The same with men. 




A male dominated patriarchial hiearchy is an archetypal pattern that has existed in the vast majority of civilizations throughout known history, both within the culture itself and it's myths and religions; which tends to lend credence to Jungs theory of the collective unconscious; seemingly unconnected peoples repeating the same patterns. Even today, it still exists within many cultures and some religious variations.

And then there's the to each his own crowd, which is probably where people are happier.

(in reply to TNstepsout)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 8:04:55 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		In those patriarchial hierarchies, most *men* are submissive, too, just toward other men.

(in reply to afkarr)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 8:15:23 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

Easy to say from the comfort of your loungeroom in the midst of civilised society. Considering much of the D/s dynamic resonates from base, primal needs, how do you think the "no gender is superior" theory might play out in a world where law and order had broken down altogether and replaced with basic instincts, which usually begin with "survival of the fittest"?

Yes, indeed, posturing is easy from a keyboard but may I remind you that 'lounging' is not gender specific. If civilization as I know it crumpled, I admit I probably would not survive. But I would bet there would be a fair number of men who die before I do.
quote:

. And now I'm wondering about the prospect of 'dominant women' in Islamic nations - THAT sounds like "a bunch of hooey"....

Just because some women are not allowed to exhibit their true natures doesn't mean they are not capable of it once they are free to do so.


This.

I've spent too many years on this planet, more time around the males of the species, to not be aware of the subtle dominance of women over men. Men, on the whole, like to live under the delusion that they are running the show, but I have yet to meet one that wasn't controlled, in some way, by a woman.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 8:27:29 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

Easy to say from the comfort of your loungeroom in the midst of civilised society. Considering much of the D/s dynamic resonates from base, primal needs, how do you think the "no gender is superior" theory might play out in a world where law and order had broken down altogether and replaced with basic instincts, which usually begin with "survival of the fittest"?

Yes, indeed, posturing is easy from a keyboard but may I remind you that 'lounging' is not gender specific. If civilization as I know it crumpled, I admit I probably would not survive. But I would bet there would be a fair number of men who die before I do.
quote:

. And now I'm wondering about the prospect of 'dominant women' in Islamic nations - THAT sounds like "a bunch of hooey"....

Just because some women are not allowed to exhibit their true natures doesn't mean they are not capable of it once they are free to do so.


This.

I've spent too many years on this planet, more time around the males of the species, to not be aware of the subtle dominance of women over men. Men, on the whole, like to live under the delusion that they are running the show, but I have yet to meet one that wasn't controlled, in some way, by a woman.



LaTigresse, if civilization as we know it crumples, I'll make my way to your farm (with your permission!) because I'm thinking my chances of survival would increase!

< Message edited by catize -- 4/2/2010 8:28:03 AM >

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 11:25:25 AM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: afkarr


quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout


For centuries society has dictated that men would occupy the Dominant role, so there are more Dominant males than females.  With those boundaries crumbling we are seeing more and more women embrace a more natural balance in their true natures.  The same with men. 




A male dominated patriarchial hiearchy is an archetypal pattern that has existed in the vast majority of civilizations throughout known history, both within the culture itself and it's myths and religions; which tends to lend credence to Jungs theory of the collective unconscious; seemingly unconnected peoples repeating the same patterns. Even today, it still exists within many cultures and some religious variations.

And then there's the to each his own crowd, which is probably where people are happier.


I'm not sure I completely buy the theory of a collective unconsciousness as the reason for male dominated society.  I think it has much more to do with pure physical strength.  With some exceptions men are typically much stronger than women and capable of overpowering them. It is natural in a setting in which physical strength is critical for survival that men would have the upper hand.  Now that our society is less dependent on physical strength we are seeing great changes in gender and role identity.

(in reply to afkarr)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 11:51:13 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

Easy to say from the comfort of your loungeroom in the midst of civilised society. Considering much of the D/s dynamic resonates from base, primal needs, how do you think the "no gender is superior" theory might play out in a world where law and order had broken down altogether and replaced with basic instincts, which usually begin with "survival of the fittest"?

Yes, indeed, posturing is easy from a keyboard but may I remind you that 'lounging' is not gender specific. If civilization as I know it crumpled, I admit I probably would not survive. But I would bet there would be a fair number of men who die before I do.
quote:

. And now I'm wondering about the prospect of 'dominant women' in Islamic nations - THAT sounds like "a bunch of hooey"....

Just because some women are not allowed to exhibit their true natures doesn't mean they are not capable of it once they are free to do so.


This.

I've spent too many years on this planet, more time around the males of the species, to not be aware of the subtle dominance of women over men. Men, on the whole, like to live under the delusion that they are running the show, but I have yet to meet one that wasn't controlled, in some way, by a woman.

Even as a male dominant, I cannot say that I completely disagree with what catize and LaTigresse have had to say here.

Why do I say "as a male dominant"?  Because on a basic level, at least with the male dominants I've seen including myself, pussy isn't the high priority that it seems to be for many vanilla and submissive men.  Vanilla women and dominant women recognize this and use it to their advantage as one of many ways of dominating these men.  While dominant men may have a high sex drive, they also tend to recognize that with submissive women who understand, and agree with, the concept that it is the dominant who controls the sexual, pussy can be obtained by a command.  In many cases, it is the emotional level where a lot of male dominants can run into a brick wall...either by submissives who want the sex and the D/s and the BDSM without an emotional commitment other than that the dominant "cares about them as a person", all the way up to those who end up needing the dominant for total emotional support in every aspect of their lives.

We are what we are and this is one time when perception...though often qualified by me in other areas...really does come into play.  What some see as confidence and self-assurance, others see as arrogance.  What some see as vulnerability or a knowledge of one's own emotions and their importance, others see as weakness.  What some view as necessary not only to a D/s dynamic but necessary to mental/emotional growth as a person, others see as tiresome work.  What some view as dominance that they crave, others see as "dominant-lite" or "extreme dominance".  It is your perception of others, and others' perception of themselves...in comparison to how society categorizes the vast majority...that helps you to decide what you are and whether or not you fit within the the sometimes-more-narrowly-defined confines of that larger society or whether you belong with another, smaller societal group. 

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 1:34:38 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Why do I say "as a male dominant"? Because on a basic level, at least with the male dominants I've seen including myself, pussy isn't the high priority that it seems to be for many vanilla and submissive men. Vanilla women and dominant women recognize this and use it to their advantage as one of many ways of dominating these men. While dominant men may have a high sex drive, they also tend to recognize that with submissive women who understand, and agree with, the concept that it is the dominant who controls the sexual, pussy can be obtained by a command. In many cases, it is the emotional level where a lot of male dominants can run into a brick wall...either by submissives who want the sex and the D/s and the BDSM without an emotional commitment other than that the dominant "cares about them as a person", all the way up to those who end up needing the dominant for total emotional support in every aspect of their lives.


Interesting where this went, because my original thoughts had to do with the fact that there are some women I would rely on for physical protection before relying on some of the men I know. But I like this bend in the road as well because I have pondered it for a very long time
S. and I have a running joke where we give the Golden Genitalia Award to various people who email us with the idea that because they have a cock ~I~ should swoon or because they have a pussy ~ he~ should swoop them up.
Submissive women, or at least this submissive woman, also recognizes the 'pussy driven' male, but I do not recognize them as a dominant. And I freely admit that I can be a bit 'cock driven' at times. D/s is very sexy and sexual, no doubt about it, at least for me. But what makes it that way is less about cock and pussy and more about the mental aspects. Sure, I want a man to want me, but I need him to want my submission more. It is beyond sexy when he can look me in the eye and say, “Not today, dear. Today I have other plans for you!” and he means it!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 2:29:30 PM   
Frankseas


Posts: 61
Joined: 1/16/2010
Status: offline 		Hell yes....women are in charge Today, but at times they are nice and allow us men to think that we are! I see it every damn day in Vanilla life at a Major Store that I work in.

The woman will tell the sub guy shes with...BF/Hubby "Oh we need some milk to! Hurry up and go get it!" Or you see the poor guys holding their wives purses outside of the fitting rooms. While I want to tell them "Grow some balls! Dont take that stuff!"

But at times it is the greatest treasure when a Strong woman will submit to your training or your will and why? Because she likes what you do for her and how you make her feel when you are together.

When you are in charge and thinking all the time in life and at work it is relaxing to turn over control to another for a short time.

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 2:53:09 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

Easy to say from the comfort of your loungeroom in the midst of civilised society. Considering much of the D/s dynamic resonates from base, primal needs, how do you think the "no gender is superior" theory might play out in a world where law and order had broken down altogether and replaced with basic instincts, which usually begin with "survival of the fittest"?

Yes, indeed, posturing is easy from a keyboard but may I remind you that 'lounging' is not gender specific. If civilization as I know it crumpled, I admit I probably would not survive. But I would bet there would be a fair number of men who die before I do.

Of course men would die - we'd be the ones doing the majority of the fighting, as inevitably happens when personal survival is on the line. The law of the jungle takes over.... Alliances form for greater protection and anyone with a necessary survival resource will need to defend it. When it's that primal, it won't be women at the front line while the men are tending the children etc. And if it is the women fighting invading men, you've probably been overrun.


quote:

quote:

. And now I'm wondering about the prospect of 'dominant women' in Islamic nations - THAT sounds like "a bunch of hooey"....

Just because some women are not allowed to exhibit their true natures doesn't mean they are not capable of it once they are free to do so.


"....women not allowed to exhibit their true natures...." This is entirely the point that brought me into this thread. You're talking about individual nature and I was responding to LadyAngelika's assertion that "no gender is superior".

I'm sorry but in the climb for sexual equality, a lot of what women can now achieve has to do with what civilisation (and *men*) have allowed and enabled. And if that civilised society breaks down and we're back to a "law of the jungle" survival mode, how many hundred pound Xena's and Buffy's and Lara Croft's do you really think will be kicking the tripe out of us big, dumb, muscle-bound, testosterone fuelled knuckle draggers?

If push comes to shove, there absolutely is a superior gender. But no, women aren't doomed because a lot of us men happen to be very fond of our women - and children, too. As patronising as that undoubtedly sounds....

I am talking a worst case scenario here, which likely won't happen until at least late 2012 - if the Mayans and Nostradamus are both correct. Which isn't quite what the OP was getting at.... lol For this thread, I'm a Dominant male who simply can't grasp a concept of submitting to anyone and tends to get quite fired up at anyone asserting their will at me.

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 3:36:59 PM   
WiseCracknSadist


Posts: 163
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		In my opinion, and I've come to this after starting out as a pretty green Dom several years back with some wrong ideas, its not about being superior on inferior. Its simply a matter of who you are.

To me a Dominant is someone who is responsible as well as a leader. That person male or female will have an above average amount of confidence usually and believe ther way is the right way.

A submissive can be every bit as confident, intelligent, and even be a leader but they prefer to support someone else.

The sex that usually becomes the focal is actually secondary to the individuals personal needs and preference.

I know for a fact that subs are not weak, atleast not the good ones. It takes a lot of strength to support a strong willed Dom.

(in reply to ShoreBound149)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 8:23:12 PM   
subexploring


Posts: 103
Joined: 12/28/2005
Status: offline 		I don't think of female superiority/male superiority as about total dominant awesomeness of whatever half of the human race you're talking about. It's more about the need the submissive has for a particular kind of gender energy in their life. Female superiority makes intuitive sense to me, but I'm also quite aware that everyone is a human being and also that there are plenty of idiotic, annoying women out there who I wouldn't relate to as a superior at all. 

At the same time, though, I want / need leadership from a woman, I need that particularly feminine kind of dominance, and when I come across a woman who has that quality I feel a special kind of devotion to her. For me, she is expressing a kind of superiority that is unique to women.

(in reply to WiseCracknSadist)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 8:27:33 PM   
VampiresLair


Posts: 1307
Joined: 9/3/2008
Status: offline 		I am a Female dominant, Fox is a male submissive, and I have quite a few female slave friends who are very near and dear to me, and several Male dominants who are as well. So, last I checked, neither gender can be considered superior or inferior without at least some of my friends being in the wrong "category". 

_____________________________

Separately we are DiurnalVampire and DVsFox

10/18 Wedding date. 1 year and still blissfully happy

10/13/10 3 year anniversary of his becoming my Fox

Talk impolitely to me, baby - Thanks sunshinemiss



(in reply to ShoreBound149)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 8:38:39 PM   
Smutmonger


Posts: 995
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		I don't see much to worry over with gender, but attraction.

And even then-most women are too repressed to express the streak of primal evil that I find seductive.

Beyond that?

An idiotic need to validate what cannot be accounted.

_____________________________

I didn't get into an alternative lifestyle to explore new frontiers in conformity.

(in reply to MadeiraDarling)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 8:54:39 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Of course men would die - we'd be the ones doing the majority of the fighting, as inevitably happens when personal survival is on the line. The law of the jungle takes over.... Alliances form for greater protection and anyone with a necessary survival resource will need to defend it. When it's that primal, it won't be women at the front line while the men are tending the children etc. And if it is the women fighting invading men, you've probably been overrun.



With today's weaponry I doubt men are the only good shots.
quote:

"....women not allowed to exhibit their true natures...." This is entirely the point that brought me into this thread. You're talking about individual nature and I was responding to LadyAngelika's assertion that "no gender is superior".


Individuals belong to groups, by gender, race, religion, political parties, countries, etc, There is no group that is superior to any other.
quote:

I'm sorry but in the climb for sexual equality, a lot of what women can now achieve has to do with what civilisation (and *men*) have allowed and enabled

Are you sorry that you made this statement or apologizing for your point of view? Women marched in the streets to get the right to vote. This was at a time when 'socially unacceptable' behaviors could ruin an entire family. They risked their 'good names', and their marriages to demand their rights. Your statement that men and civilization 'allowed and enabled' women's suffrage is an insult to the women who were intelligent and articulate and convincing enough that the lawmakers (men) were forced to change their narrow minded views. Women were not given the vote, they demanded it.. Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, Lucy Stone are only a few of the American women who are remembered for what thy did; there were other women before them in various countries who fought and won their rights long before American women did.
But I don't expect that any of this will get through your testosterone bubble, so I'll just wish you well.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 10:16:42 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

Of course men would die - we'd be the ones doing the majority of the fighting, as inevitably happens when personal survival is on the line. The law of the jungle takes over.... Alliances form for greater protection and anyone with a necessary survival resource will need to defend it. When it's that primal, it won't be women at the front line while the men are tending the children etc. And if it is the women fighting invading men, you've probably been overrun.


With today's weaponry I doubt men are the only good shots.

I see, in a post apocalyptic situation, you assume we'll be arming with modern military hardware at 500 metres plus? Or we'll just roll up at the local gun store with Amex in hand...?


quote:

quote:

"....women not allowed to exhibit their true natures...." This is entirely the point that brought me into this thread. You're talking about individual nature and I was responding to LadyAngelika's assertion that "no gender is superior".


Individuals belong to groups, by gender, race, religion, political parties, countries, etc, There is no group that is superior to any other.

Come the apocalypse, I'm sure that will be very comforting to you when some neanderthal claims you as his. Won't be any of that "consenting adults' philosophy to complicate matters, either....


quote:

quote:

I'm sorry but in the climb for sexual equality, a lot of what women can now achieve has to do with what civilisation (and *men*) have allowed and enabled

Are you sorry that you made this statement or apologizing for your point of view?

Nope, that's me unashamedly and codescendingly apologising for your own naivity. Xena isn't real, or even non-fiction - nor is Buffy; or Charlie's Angels; or the Tomb Raider; or Janeway; or the Halliwell sisters blah blah. It's all gratuitious television/hollywood fiction....


quote:

Women marched in the streets to get the right to vote. This was at a time when 'socially unacceptable' behaviors could ruin an entire family. They risked their 'good names', and their marriages to demand their rights. Your statement that men and civilization 'allowed and enabled' women's suffrage is an insult to the women who were intelligent and articulate and convincing enough that the lawmakers (men) were forced to change their narrow minded views. Women were not given the vote, they demanded it.. Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, Lucy Stone are only a few of the American women who are remembered for what thy did; there were other women before them in various countries who fought and won their rights long before American women did.

And round n round it goes. AGAIN, you're talking about the evolution of a modern, progressive western *civilisation* and the freedoms that that enables. So who are the Islamic women leading the marches - how come they're not out there demanding rights? I'm not debating what's fair and right; I'm all for equality (when it doesn't exclude men) - the core barrier in the Islamic culture stems from one gender being physically superior to the other and they ain't about to just give over that advantage.


quote:

But I don't expect that any of this will get through your testosterone bubble, so I'll just wish you well.

And there it is - the magic "t" word....

Posted this just yesterday in Smutmonger's "Generational differences" thread:
"When's the last time you heard the word "testosterone" used in a sentence other than as a 'zinger' to diminish/belittle/emasculate a male?

I won't be apologising for being a man no matter how unpalatable it apparently is to carry male hormones in modern Western culture.

So we end on contemporary woman's favourite cheap shot, ay?

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 11:09:15 PM   
Warmher


Posts: 7
Joined: 9/23/2008
Status: offline 		I think it is all nonsense. I will say that I have seen a Domme give a lady sub a public session that had me in disbelief by its harshness. The Domme knew just what to do and when to do it to her and it caused an incredible reaction. Every so often, the Domme would check her sub, and the sub would beg for more.

(in reply to MadeiraDarling)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/2/2010 11:14:58 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

So we end on contemporary woman's favourite cheap shot, ay?

quote:

society breaks down and we're back to a "law of the jungle" survival mode, how many hundred pound Xena's and Buffy's and Lara Croft's do you really think will be kicking the tripe out of us big, dumb, muscle-bound, testosterone fuelled knuckle draggers?


You mentioned it first, right there^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

quote:

Nope, that's me unashamedly and codescendingly apologising for your own naivity. Xena isn't real, or even non-fiction - nor is Buffy; or Charlie's Angels; or the Tomb Raider; or Janeway; or the Halliwell sisters blah blah. It's all gratuitious television/hollywood fiction....


I don't watch television and vaguely have heard the names and have no clue why you would first assume I knew who they were, or if I did why I would think they could save the world anymore than superman or batman. ('cuz in case ya didn't know, they ain't real either)

< Message edited by catize -- 4/2/2010 11:19:39 PM >

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Gender/Power Dynamics. - 4/3/2010 2:30:41 AM   
MadeiraDarling


Posts: 30
Joined: 3/16/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MadeiraDarling



It's funny I'm the opposite, I dominate men, and submit to women.


It's funny that the only reason you do it is because you get paid.


From your profile...

"Also as a hypnotic domme, I can put you under and make you experience just about anything so that's another option."


You should put yourself under and try and erase the memories of who hurt you.


...I do it because I enjoy it and I get paid, Lifestyle I'm a lesbian sub, I enjoy dominance with men, not sexually, but it's pleasant.

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 40
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