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Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/2/2010 3:55:41 PM   
intenze


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Status: offline 		A quote from a gubanatorial candidate in Iowa:.....“No Child Left Behind, will be left behind,” said Vander Plaats. “The government doesn’t belong in the classroom"
Does it?
Since it is a government institution,paid for by taxpayer dollars, I think it does. What do you think?

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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/2/2010 4:56:39 PM   
thornhappy


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Status: offline 		The argument over NCLB is that it was the federal government in your school, not the local or state government.

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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/2/2010 5:57:38 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		Since the government is writing the checks, they are in the classrooms. Since the government is now funding health care, they will also be making health care decisions for all of us.

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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/2/2010 8:15:00 PM   
intenze


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Status: offline 		The federal government writes the checks too, for schools. In fact, it can be a fairly large amount of the total contribution to the local school district. Free and reduced lunches, social programs like Title 1, etc., are federally funded.
NCLB was inherently flawed because it the return on investment to have every child achieve literacy and mathematics competency is too low. However, it did, and does, make schools accountable. It has changed the face of education, and even though it was inept, it did expose a lot of laizez faire educational practices.

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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/2/2010 9:46:22 PM   
popeye1250


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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/3/2010 5:52:19 AM   
intenze


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Status: offline 		Why do you feel that way Popeye?

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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/3/2010 11:24:52 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Because kids are there to learn? "Teach don't preach."

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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/3/2010 12:19:18 PM   
Jeffff


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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/3/2010 5:44:12 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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The government in the classroom is preferable to the church in my view.

If you don't have government funding then you need some other source, I think the government has an inherent interest in wanting to produce the brightest students.


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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/3/2010 6:02:17 PM   
zenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
I think the government has an inherent interest in wanting to produce the brightest students.



That made me giggle like a little school girl. If the government cared about producing the brightest students then it wouldn't have the no child left behind policy in the first place. It caters to the lowest common denominator and doesn't allow for deviation from it's 'wholesome and comprehensive (HA!) plan'. This leaves you with stunted students and frustrated teachers. As is my opinion elsewhere, the govt. is to oversee, not decree.

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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/3/2010 6:04:45 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Status: offline 		Standardisation is the best way to get consistent results, it's up to you if you want government or church control. As the absence of one usually means the presence of the other.

edit: or = of

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 4/3/2010 6:10:25 PM >

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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/3/2010 7:43:00 PM   
zenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Standardisation is the best way to get consistent results, it's up to you if you want government or church control. As the absence of one usually means the presence of the other.

edit: or = of


I can agree that standardization tends to lead to consistent results. However, not the best results. Whether one measures it in contrast to the individual or nation. When catering to the lowest common denominator that's what you get - and it only goes lower. Lack of standardization allowing teachers to teach their students (as opposed to recite pre-made lesson plans) and allows them to assess and cater to the students themselves. More so than a standardized plan can. Thus, the results fall more on the students abilities and allows those that can to soar and still allows those that can't to be helped.

Also, the government should keep itself out at the same time it does the church. That is the ideal situation and often the overlooked one.

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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/3/2010 7:47:13 PM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		No. Doctors will make health care decisions and not insurance companies denying medical care in order to increase profits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Since the government is writing the checks, they are in the classrooms. Since the government is now funding health care, they will also be making health care decisions for all of us.

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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/3/2010 7:59:58 PM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		No Child left behind is a Republican idea and as usual Republican ideas are flawed and it has been administered incompetently.   I expect Democrats to correct this situation unless they are unable to overcome Republican obstruction.
 
The No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 [1][2] (often abbreviated in print as NCLB and sometimes shortened in pronunciation to "nicklebee")[3] is a United States Act of Congress that was originally proposed by the administration of President George W. Bush immediately after taking office.[4
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
I think the government has an inherent interest in wanting to produce the brightest students.



That made me giggle like a little school girl. If the government cared about producing the brightest students then it wouldn't have the no child left behind policy in the first place. It caters to the lowest common denominator and doesn't allow for deviation from it's 'wholesome and comprehensive (HA!) plan'. This leaves you with stunted students and frustrated teachers. As is my opinion elsewhere, the govt. is to oversee, not decree.


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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/3/2010 8:04:14 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

No Child left behind is a Republican idea and as usual Republican ideas are flawed and it has been administered incompetently.   I expect Democrats to correct this situation unless they are unable to overcome Republican obstruction.
 
The No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 [1][2] (often abbreviated in print as NCLB and sometimes shortened in pronunciation to "nicklebee")[3] is a United States Act of Congress that was originally proposed by the administration of President George W. Bush immediately after taking office.[4
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
I think the government has an inherent interest in wanting to produce the brightest students.



That made me giggle like a little school girl. If the government cared about producing the brightest students then it wouldn't have the no child left behind policy in the first place. It caters to the lowest common denominator and doesn't allow for deviation from it's 'wholesome and comprehensive (HA!) plan'. This leaves you with stunted students and frustrated teachers. As is my opinion elsewhere, the govt. is to oversee, not decree.


]

You missed part of it in your quote.

The bill, shepherded through the Senate by Senator Ted Kennedy, one of the bill's sponsors, received overwhelming bipartisan support in Congress.[5] The House of Representatives passed the bill on May 23, 2001 (voting 384-45),[6] and United States Senate passed it on June 14, 2001 (voting 91-8).

I never knew Teddy was a republican, the things you learn on CM. I'm amazed.


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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/4/2010 5:22:02 AM   
eyesopened


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From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		Apathy is the precursor to tyranny.

We've known about the problem with education in the US for a very long time.  But we haven't done anything.  It's a mold.  Like a mold in one's house, it's the homeowner's problem.  They paint over it, they can wallpaper and the mold keeps growing.  Then everyone is shocked when it is a public health problem and the evil government steps in and the house is condemmed.

Our education system is at that stage.  It's not a district problem, it's not a county problem, it's not a state problem, it's a national problem.

The education problem costs the taxpayer in so many ways.  Crime-related costs, loss of earning (tax) potential, costs for public assistance programs.  It amounts to billions of dollars.
http://www.all4ed.org/files/GraduationRates_FactSheet.pdf





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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/4/2010 6:59:06 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Apathy is the precursor to tyranny.

We've known about the problem with education in the US for a very long time.  But we haven't done anything.  It's a mold.  Like a mold in one's house, it's the homeowner's problem.  They paint over it, they can wallpaper and the mold keeps growing.  Then everyone is shocked when it is a public health problem and the evil government steps in and the house is condemmed.

Our education system is at that stage.  It's not a district problem, it's not a county problem, it's not a state problem, it's a national problem.

The education problem costs the taxpayer in so many ways.  Crime-related costs, loss of earning (tax) potential, costs for public assistance programs.  It amounts to billions of dollars.
http://www.all4ed.org/files/GraduationRates_FactSheet.pdf








the whole system is broke top to bottom!

Democracy does not work, never has and never will, just like the founders said its all crashing down around us, and it didnt even survive 100 years.

Time to get the republic back.


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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/5/2010 2:34:42 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny
Lack of standardization allowing teachers to teach their students (as opposed to recite pre-made lesson plans) and allows them to assess and cater to the students themselves. More so than a standardized plan can. Thus, the results fall more on the students abilities and allows those that can to soar and still allows those that can't to be helped.

How do you find and disseminate good practice without a planned structure or established lines of communication between different geographical locations? You need structure to find out what works and hold people to account that aren't up to the job of teaching. For every example of individual teachers finding a better solution for students they'll be an example where one teacher is getting it wrong and doing so in isolation, without guidance on best practice from elsewhere.

Your example of the individual teacher finding the best fit for the student works both ways.

In any scientific test you can't find what variables are key to the end result unless you set a standardised test and change the variables. If two teachers follow the same system and one can't make it work then perhaps that says something about the ability of the teacher but you won't find that if you are changing all of the variables and not keeping anything standard from test to test. Also not to sound harsh but if the students have the same opportunities and experiences at school we'll know the results they get really represent their individual ability in the workplace.

In the UK with O-levels they used to score students with only a certain fixed percentage getting top marks regardless of academic scores i.e. you could get 90% and still end up with a poor result depending on what scores others students got in comparison that year. We used to make students compete for marks, which is a nonsense in terms of trying to establish a consistent standard. This was one extreme and the other extreme is saying that every student is as capable as the next, there needs to be a balance found between the two.

It seems these days we can't blame anyone but the teachers or the system for the results. We should instead realise that some have had better opportunities towards learning before even setting foot in a classroom and learn from that.


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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/5/2010 2:52:31 PM   
Termyn8or


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Where in the Constsution does it say the government should be responsible for education ?

Despite my level of detest for the entire school environment, that last sentence stands. Despite what I think of NCLB that sentence stands. Despite the fact that I could not stand being in school, that it wasn't the people just the environment, and that it was the entire institution itself I couldn't stand that sentence still stands.

Despite my personal situation and opinion, I wonder if anyone can answer the question.

T

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RE: Does the government belong in the classroom? - 4/5/2010 3:00:04 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

Where in the Constsution does it say the government should be responsible for education ?

Despite my level of detest for the entire school environment, that last sentence stands. Despite what I think of NCLB that sentence stands. Despite the fact that I could not stand being in school, that it wasn't the people just the environment, and that it was the entire institution itself I couldn't stand that sentence still stands.

Despite my personal situation and opinion, I wonder if anyone can answer the question.

T


It is in the State Constitutions, Termy. 

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