Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing

Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (Full Version)

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subfever -> Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/4/2010 8:25:04 AM)
The parasites turn up the dial on exploiting their peon hosts.

Politesub53 -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/4/2010 1:23:33 PM)
No doubt there will be some on here complaining about government interference, for investigating this issue. Scott Sayler, free enterprise at its finest.

subfever -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/4/2010 8:13:10 PM)
As far as I can see, there's no way to legislate the removal of greed. Even the threat of execution doesn't deter all, as recently evidenced in China. It seems that the only rational conclusion, is that the system itself is flawed.

Politesub53 -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/5/2010 2:51:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever It seems that the only rational conclusion, is that the system itself is flawed. In what way ?

Sanity -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/5/2010 6:49:26 AM)
We're all gonna die.

subfever -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/5/2010 2:26:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: subfever It seems that the only rational conclusion, is that the system itself is flawed. In what way ? A monetary-based, capitalist system will always give rise to greed, pollution, hunger, and war. We can either decide that we're willing to support this system and its offspring of greed, pollution, hunger, and war; or humanity can move forward and replace this outdated and barbaric system.

Politesub53 -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/5/2010 4:19:06 PM)
I dont agree that a monetary based system is the cause for greed. History has shown that when goods were bartered instead of cash there was still greed. History has also shown us that where there is a communist society there is still greed. The banks wouldn`t have been able to cause the financial meltdown if the right checks and balances had stayed in place. Society, whether it is goods based, or cash based, has always traded. Trade buys goods, the lack of control, self impossed or otherwise, produces the greed.

subfever -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/5/2010 9:19:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 I dont agree that a monetary based system is the cause for greed. History has shown that when goods were bartered instead of cash there was still greed. History has also shown us that where there is a communist society there is still greed. Yes, which is all the more reason not to repeat those past failures. quote: The banks wouldn't have been able to cause the financial meltdown if the right checks and balances had stayed in place. What, in your opinion, specifically caused the meltdown, and what specific checks and balances would have prevented it? quote: Society, whether it is goods based, or cash based, has always traded. Trade buys goods... Indeed, mankind has always traded. There was a time when this was necessary. Technology will enable us to solve problems that couldn't be solved back then. It's time to move forward, evolve, and stop allowing the past to impose future limitations upon us. quote: ...the lack of control, self impossed or otherwise, produces the greed. I disagree. It's the perception of scarcity and its offspring of fear that initially produces greed. Then, through accumulation of wealth, the individual's perception of scarcity diminishes and evolves into ego/self-esteem, which drives his pursuit of social stratification.

Silence8 -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/5/2010 9:27:28 PM)
I don't see an immediate alternative to money, maybe in some hypothetical future, but presently credit, capital and communities themselves can be restructured. My theory of late is that the problem with capitalism manifests itself in price inflation across the board due to 'entities of size', including everyday items as well as large things, and especially housing, such that everything is in effect rented. We should re-name the system 'feudalism with Capital characteristics'.

subfever -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/5/2010 9:56:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 I don't see an immediate alternative to money, maybe in some hypothetical future, but presently credit, capital and communities themselves can be restructured. I used to think so too. I went through phases, actually supporting the current system at one time. Then I evolved into a commodity-money advocate. From there, I evolved into a government-issued monetary system (pulling the plug on the privately-owned, Federal Reserve). Now I believe those schools-of-thought are misguided, as none of them address the issues of greed, prejudice, pollution, hunger, and war. But I'm always open for better ideas. How would you restructure credit, capital and communities? quote: My theory of late is that the problem with capitalism manifests itself in price inflation across the board due to 'entities of size', including everyday items as well as large things, and especially housing, such that everything is in effect rented. I think capitalism drives us into abject competition. We're feeding off each other, and creating false, empty values. We devote our entire lives to playing their game, you know, those at the top 5% of the food chain who own over 80% of the wealth... enslaving ourselves to our possessions in the process. quote: We should re-name the system 'feudalism with Capital characteristics'. I have no problem with that, but I'd much rather change the system as opposed to re-name it.

Silence8 -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/5/2010 11:21:52 PM)
As an ideal, the old-American principle of equality is, in fact, dead on. The trick is to take it from the cosmopolitan into the real. And maybe to emphasize (and remember) that equality and individualism can and must co-exist.

subfever -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/5/2010 11:30:15 PM)
I believe equality will give rise to individualism as never before seen.

Termyn8or -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/5/2010 11:43:22 PM)
"I believe equality will give rise to individualism as never before seen." You do realize the gravity of that statement I hope. In a class war equality can only come when their money is no good. There is only one way that is going to happen. T

subfever -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/6/2010 12:27:08 AM)
quote: You do realize the gravity of that statement I hope. In a class war equality can only come when their money is no good. There is only one way that is going to happen. But when you talk about destruction, don't you know that you can count me out?

Politesub53 -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/6/2010 1:43:31 AM)
ORIGINAL: subfever quote: Yes, which is all the more reason not to repeat those past failures. You forget that it is these past failures, which led to cohesive societies, that now live in relative peace. quote: What, in your opinion, specifically caused the meltdown, and what specific checks and balances would have prevented it? Fraud, on a massive scale, caused the meltdown. The man in the street buying houses, with no chance to repay the loan. The mortgage companies dishing out loans, with very few basic checks. Major companies inflating profits falsely, to enable more growth. All of these could have been prevented with the basic checks and balances that existed in the 90s. quote: Indeed, mankind has always traded. There was a time when this was necessary. Technology will enable us to solve problems that couldn't be solved back then. It's time to move forward, evolve, and stop allowing the past to impose future limitations upon us. You overlook a simple point. How does the individual pay to obtain this "latest technology" It doesnt come free, it isnt produced for free. Do you think research and development companies will start giving this stuff away ? Monsanto say otherwise. quote: I disagree. It's the perception of scarcity and its offspring of fear that initially produces greed. Then, through accumulation of wealth, the individual's perception of scarcity diminishes and evolves into ego/self-esteem, which drives his pursuit of social stratification. The above quote makes no sense to me. Scarcity of what ? How does scarcity transpose into ego ? I wonder how far history and technological development would need to regress, to reach the level you are on about.

subfever -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/6/2010 8:27:22 AM)
quote: You forget that it is these past failures, which led to cohesive societies, that now live in relative peace. I haven’t forgotten. All I’m saying is that those societies failed. Therefore, there’s no point in returning to them. quote: Fraud, on a massive scale, caused the meltdown. The man in the street buying houses, with no chance to repay the loan. The mortgage companies dishing out loans, with very few basic checks. Major companies inflating profits falsely, to enable more growth. All of these could have been prevented with the basic checks and balances that existed in the 90s. So then, greed on both sides of the equation caused the meltdown. Stepping back, and looking at a bigger picture, what causes greed? Greed is like running water, and will follow a path of least resistance. If you place a barrier, it will find other paths to run by. We can constantly place new laws, check and balances, barriers until we can’t even count them all (treating symptoms), or we can examine, question, and change the supporting structure of greed (treating the cause). quote: You overlook a simple point. How does the individual pay to obtain this "latest technology" It doesnt come free, it isnt produced for free. Do you think research and development companies will start giving this stuff away ? Monsanto say otherwise. I haven�t overlooked anything. You�re talking about the confinements of the existing structure. I�m talking about what we need to move towards, for the benefit of humanity and a sustainable planet as a whole. quote: “It's the perception of scarcity and its offspring of fear that initially produces greed. Then, through accumulation of wealth, the individual's perception of scarcity diminishes and evolves into ego/self-esteem, which drives his pursuit of social stratification.” The above quote makes no sense to me. Scarcity of what ? The scarcity of money, and therefore, the subsistence that money buys. quote: How does scarcity transpose into ego ? Under our current system, once the perception (fear) of scarcity is eliminated, the focus then typically evolves from subsistence to the stroking/puffing of egos/self-esteem, through social stratification. quote: I wonder how far history and technological development would need to regress, to reach the level you are on about. You misunderstand entirely. Technological development would advance exponentially under a system where the motive for profit has been removed.

Termyn8or -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/6/2010 9:02:22 AM)
"You misunderstand entirely. Technological development would advance exponentially under a system where the motive for profit has been removed." Perhaps. But as it stands now, even on an individual level the desire to succeed is stronger than the desire to create. New breakthroughs right now mean profit$. That is why anyone works. So removing the profit motive is much more easily said than done. Way easier said than done. Say you want a fusion reactor. So you walk a couple doors down and see your buddy. You tell him "I need a bunch of oxygen free copper tubing, a tank or so of liquid nitrogen and a high powered laser". Things don't work that way. Research costs money. So unless we all become incredibly wealthy and altruistic tomorrow morning, things will stay the same. But yes, even the threat of execution doesn't work to get these assholes to actually work. Like people who claim the death penalty is not a deterrent, with whom I disagree but they have one valid point. People generally don't think they're going to get caught. No threat of punishment no matter how gruesome will work when someone thinks they won't get caught. I think I'll break out the rototiller and start getting ready for the garden. At least I might have a clue as to the quality of what grows there. Other than that, I, like the rest of us are at their mercy. T

subfever -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/6/2010 11:22:45 AM)
quote: "You misunderstand entirely. Technological development would advance exponentially under a system where the motive for profit has been removed." Perhaps. But as it stands now, even on an individual level the desire to succeed is stronger than the desire to create. Indeed, survival motivation defeats unrelated creativity. quote: New breakthroughs right now mean profit$ Profits for some, but losses for others (older technologies). quote: That is why anyone works. The vast majority work to survive, not to create. quote: So removing the profit motive is much more easily said than done. Indeed. quote: Way easier said than done. Say you want a fusion reactor. So you walk a couple doors down and see your buddy. You tell him "I need a bunch of oxygen free copper tubing, a tank or so of liquid nitrogen and a high powered laser". Things don't work that way. Research costs money. So unless we all become incredibly wealthy and altruistic tomorrow morning, things will stay the same. I readily concur that this cannot be accomplished within a monetary-based, capitalistic structure. quote: But yes, even the threat of execution doesn't work to get these assholes to actually work. Like people who claim the death penalty is not a deterrent, with whom I disagree but they have one valid point. People generally don't think they're going to get caught. No threat of punishment no matter how gruesome will work when someone thinks they won't get caught. The threat of death does not deter those who believe they won't get caught. No argument there. quote: I think I'll break out the rototiller and start getting ready for the garden. At least I might have a clue as to the quality of what grows there. Other than that, I, like the rest of us are at their mercy. We're at their mercy, at least until we've raised the collective consciousness of the masses. Think MLK Jr., or Gandhi.

Silence8 -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/6/2010 11:44:11 PM)
I'm not sure if the idea of 'eliminating money' is a coherent idea, in the sense of you cannot eliminate money any easier than eliminating exchange all together, and even eliminating language. Life is all about language and exchange. (M - Money, C - Commodities) Basically, the way the industry/ business co-op works is using this formula: M -> C -> M' , where M' > M. Human Rights = $ M / human So, there are a host of problems related to M -> C -> M', but there's also this issue of M -> M' , which is similar in effect as when a microphone is faced towards its speaker, a sort of direct feedback. Banking is essentially M -> M', I think, while industry is more about M -> C -> M'. Business hinges between the two, using one to prop up the other, alternating.

subfever -> RE: Food Fraud and Safety Warning Cases Growing (4/7/2010 8:25:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 I'm not sure if the idea of 'eliminating money' is a coherent idea, in the sense of you cannot eliminate money any easier than eliminating exchange all together, and even eliminating language. Life is all about language and exchange. (M - Money, C - Commodities) Basically, the way the industry/ business co-op works is using this formula: M -> C -> M' , where M' > M. Human Rights = $ M / human So, there are a host of problems related to M -> C -> M', but there's also this issue of M -> M' , which is similar in effect as when a microphone is faced towards its speaker, a sort of direct feedback. Banking is essentially M -> M', I think, while industry is more about M -> C -> M'. Business hinges between the two, using one to prop up the other, alternating. Click on the link in post 16, for a full explanation of a resource-based economy vs. our monetary-based economy.

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