Being a good friend-Rant enclosed

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HisSweetElysium -> Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 9:35:43 AM)
Let me start by saying 2 things, 1. there are 2 sides to every story, and I realize that. 2. it's none of my damned business. Ok 3 things, and I know my nose does not belong in this situation at all, but sometimes by being someone's friend and confidante, you find your nose in places it does not belong. I met a woman on another kink site from about a thousand miles away. She liked my art. We had a nice conversation going over a few months. She then told me she was moving to my area to be nearer to her guy. Great, another kinky friend, I was happy. I had not pried too much into her situation online, but after we met, she gave me the details. She had been married to a vanilla guy, and then upon divorce, reconnected with someone from high school who was into kink. She started seeing him, despite the distance, and things seemed very good. He introduced her to BDSM, and she found she really liked it. Eventually, he asked her to move here, and after 9 months or so of long distance and monthly visits, she did. She gave up her job, and packed up her kid, and moved a thousand miles. It was understood before she moved here that he would have play partners outside of their relationship, but she was to be the primary person. She accepted this, as the emotional commitment would be with her, and he would spend time playing with other women, who he called "toys". Admittedly, someone with more experience in this realm might have asked for far more detailed clarification on what this meant, but what this played out to be though, was very different. After she arrived, he took no emotional responsibility for her, basically telling her if she had reservations or insecurities about anything he was doing to keep it to herself, and not spoil his fun. He would break plans with her to see other women. Usually with some lame excuse which after she would find out about when one of these other women would post pictures on the site. She met some of his "toys" at various kink events, and for the most part, was alright with them, but there was one woman who she did not like, who made her insecure, and who she felt was pursuing a relationship with him, even if covertly. She expressed that to him, and he got very angry, telling her it was not her place, and now she made him feel bad, and that was wrong of her to do, and she should have kept her thoughts to herself. As it turns out, he had been doing exactly that. He told this other woman that he was bringing my friend here to be in a poly relationship with them, and the fact that it did not start that way upon her arrival was b/c he was just navigating the relationship to that point. My friend ended up speaking directly to this other woman, and the other woman was horrified to learn that my friend had NO interest in poly, and had always held that position. Caught red handed in his lies, the other woman told the guy to take a hike for being dishonest and manipulative. Now the guy in question blames my friend for "ruining his fun". He sees nothing wrong with what he did, and won't even admit it despite both women coming together and reviewing what they had been told together. Just yesterday he told my friend that he is canceling their relationship and they are "just friends" to see if they can "work past the hurt" in that way, and promptly changed his status to "single" on the other site. My friend is devastated, this is her first BDSM relationship, and she packed up her whole life to come here. Everyone she knows, with the exception of me, is active in the scene and people she met through him, so she feels she can't even go to events anymore because of that. She feels embarrassed, stupid and most of all, alone. She has tried repeatedly to talk to him, but he says she's fighting and it won't help. I've read the texts she's sent, and it's not fighting, she basically is trying to communicate and find a way to make it work, but as with everything, it's his way. I am so sad for her, and so angry! I hate seeing her in pain, and I think this guy is a complete tool (I thought that before all this happened, but kept that opinion to myself). I have the most wonderful, supportive, responsible Master I could ask for. I've tried to talk to Him about her situation, and He gets so angry about this "dom's" behavior, that Master has asked me not to speak to Him about it because He is a good man, and hearing this is too upsetting to Him. Personally I feel that at the heart of BDSM and human relationships is communication and trust. This "man" has proved himself to be inept at one, and undeserving of the other. I am trying to be supportive and nonjudgmental for my friend because I realize that is not helpful, but I am also trying to encourage her to stand up for herself, and not let this guy pin the blame on her for the current situation, or for her to accept a situation that is not emotionally good for her based on desperation and fear. I was very tempted to post this on the site they use, but opted to come here instead for fear of further fueling the fire. I am not going to get involved, but I am sorely tempted to email this man and tell him exactly what I think of him. I won't, I won't, b/c that would be for me, not her, and I want to be a good friend. It's just hard, and frustrating, to stand by.... I'm not sure if advice, support or just comments are warranted, but at any rate, thanks for reading. And if this gets moved to other stupidity, I'm sure I know why....

DesFIP -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 9:42:11 AM)
Tell your friend to forget about relationships for now. But to heal and to reconsider what she wants in life. If she wanted a monogamous relationship, which is what it appears to be, tell her not to lie to herself in future that she can be okay if he has others. More importantly she chose to move in order to see if a man she really only knew from online was someone she could live with forever. The fact that she used to know him a long time ago is immaterial. She didn't even bother to visit with him over time, have him visit her, and see if they could get along as friends as well as lovers and partners in a bdsm relationship. She's acted very unwisely and needs to think about what she's learned from this in order not to repeat it in the future.

HisSweetElysium -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 9:46:20 AM)
I think I have a bit more sympathy for her, b/c she really did feel she knew him and could trust him, having known him in the past. I understand where you're coming from though, and I think yes, if she does not manage to make this work, she will probably back out of relationships for a long time, and probably kink all together.

kiwisub12 -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 10:05:54 AM)
I agree with DesFIP - she jumped in over her head and basically drowned - AND the man (i won't designate him a dom - because he isn't) is a tool. He isn't dominant, he is a swinger with kink - but that might give swingers a bad name. Can you support your friend in the local scene by having her go with you to munches and so on. I realise she feels humiliated, but i think local people will realise that she is the innocent, naive one. It wouldn't take more than a couple of times of going with you to give her some confidence that not everyone is laughing at her.

HisSweetElysium -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 10:21:01 AM)
Thanks Kiwi, I definitely agree with you both, I still don't blame her though, everyone has made mistakes in trusting people they shouldn't with more than they should. Unfortunately, hers was a tough gamble and it didn't pay off. I am going to be bringing her to some events, she came with me to the photomunch on Thursday, and I might bring her to a party on Saturday. She is talking about moving away though, and I can't really say I blame her, but it's sad...

GraciousLady -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 10:28:03 AM)
This is indeed a sad and heartbreaking story. It's even sadder that children are involved. Your friend has hung her life on this man and he turned out to be a total wang. I hope she is not living with him or dependent on him for financial support. If so, she needs to move back home where family can assiste her in getting back on her feet. I know she is heartbroken but the relationship has just not worked. And, from this mans behaviour why would she want to try to make it work? He is going to be disrespectful of her and continue to hurt her not to mention expose her to disease processes. I think all you can do right now is love her and support her emotionaly. You can also let her see what a real Dom is by example so she does not feel like she is wrong.

HisSweetElysium -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 10:37:14 AM)
Luckily she is a very educated woman with 2 PhDs, and can easily get good paying work. She did not move in with him, and has maintained her own finances, so the pieces that are left to be picked up are mostly emotional. She was however, in a car wreck about 2 weeks ago, and her 16 yr old son made some rather poor choices that ended with her and him being evicted from their apartment in a few months, so really, it's been a terrible month for this poor woman.

AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 10:47:44 AM)
Elysium, She is your friend so I am sure this is difficult for you but please allow me to tell you what I read. She moved her child and herself into a situation that was OBVIOUSLY never clearly defined, and by that I mean it would seem she never was clear about Poly and what is strange is you said she used Poly terms like Primary Relationship, If she wasn't Poly then this part of their relationship and what I think is the Largest Breakdown really falls on her. She was intimidated by another woman and when she confronted what was supposed to be her Master he told her she was spoiling his fun. This came up a few times in the story you told what is sad is that it would seem from these words he is not the commitment minded person period and really is just looking for a stable. If this is the case then it would seem to me she never discussed her needs to this man because if she had done so then it would be much harder for him to have decieved her. In the end your friend jumped into a relationship far too quickly and did it with someone who looked pretty and used the roses to cover the shit smell. In the end he is a Douche Bag, he is a Tool, he is an Asshole, He is a Liar, but he was always those things your friend simply believed them and because of that is in a bad situation. There was a Movie called "Why did I get Married" in it there is a line about the 80/20 rule. About how most relationships are with people who meet about 80% of your wants and hopes and dreams, when you are in a relationship like that the 20% you aren't getting (BDSM) looks really attractive and you can find youself walking away from an 80% sure things to a 20% sure thing, and simple math will tell you that you usually lose out on a LOT more than you get by doing so. I am not saying that this is what happened what I am saying is that she got out of a relationship that wasn't working and it would seem got into a relationship with the only drive being the BDSM Lifestyle and once she got it realized she didn't set up the Love and trust and compassion and STABILITY that all relationships need regardless of BDSM. So in the end, you can blame the asshole all you want, but if she doesn't smarten up and start to realize that being in a BDSM relationship is no different than being in a Vanilla Relationship and start the foundation from a Honest and Communicated place this kind of thing will happen again and it will always be the "Guy's" Fault and you friend will never realize it's her Picker that is faulty, she needs to start thinking with the Logical part of her head and not the Fantasy part cause it's leading her astray. QSM

Termyn8or -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 10:57:38 AM)
You sound like the kind of friend I want Elysium. At least you give a shit. Even so though, don't let it upset your apple cart. Your friend has earning power and she can move anywhere, at least she is not living under a bridge because of this dickhead. And it seems that she did a bit of homework, met the guy and did not jump feet first unknowingly, at least knowingly. She still got burned ! Fortunately you don't have to put her up, open up the spare room or whatever as she has no problem fending for herself. But money does not buy everything, so just be a friend. If she is a friend and you want her around, give her a nice tour of town, and possibly "paint it red". You might get a phone call from her stating she just got this killer job and is looking for a house. It sounds like her main problem right now is dealing with the siuation emotionally, I guess that's where you come in. T

HisSweetElysium -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 11:09:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan Elysium, She is your friend so I am sure this is difficult for you but please allow me to tell you what I read. She moved her child and herself into a situation that was OBVIOUSLY never clearly defined, and by that I mean it would seem she never was clear about Poly and what is strange is you said she used Poly terms like Primary Relationship, If she wasn't Poly then this part of their relationship and what I think is the Largest Breakdown really falls on her. Those are my terms, not hers, I've been around this block a few times, and, short of the hours of conversation that brought forth this information, thought I would use the lingo that the smart folks on CM could get without the background in my already long post. My apologies. I believe in her mind it WAS clearly defined, but not being familiar with BDSM, I'm not sure she realized all the nuances and variances that could come up. Basically to her, this was a man from her past, an old friend, that promised an emotional commitment who wanted side physical dalliances, but promised to love and care for her. Because of this past, she believed and trusted him, and jumped into a situation that she was not equipped to handle, or did not understand. When she reached out to the person who was supposed to love and care for her above others, she was rebuked and scolded. Even if this arrangement were understood at the outset, you would think he would take a step back and give her the love and reassurance she clearly needed, rather than behave this way. quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan She was intimidated by another woman and when she confronted what was supposed to be her Master he told her she was spoiling his fun. This came up a few times in the story you told what is sad is that it would seem from these words he is not the commitment minded person period and really is just looking for a stable. If this is the case then it would seem to me she never discussed her needs to this man because if she had done so then it would be much harder for him to have decieved her. But she did, by her estimation, in establishing their relationship as primary and his acceptance of that. I would go so far as to say, that having moved, picked up her life, and her unfamiliarity with the workings of this sort of relationship, she may have overlooked signs in the beginning, WANTING to have made the right decision. That is something, bdsm aside, many many people do in a new relationship, even without a thousand mile move factored in, so I don't really blame her for that either. quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan In the end your friend jumped into a relationship far too quickly and did it with someone who looked pretty and used the roses to cover the shit smell. In the end he is a Douche Bag, he is a Tool, he is an Asshole, He is a Liar, but he was always those things your friend simply believed them and because of that is in a bad situation. I will not argue that point in the least. quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan There was a Movie called "Why did I get Married" in it there is a line about the 80/20 rule. About how most relationships are with people who meet about 80% of your wants and hopes and dreams, when you are in a relationship like that the 20% you aren't getting (BDSM) looks really attractive and you can find youself walking away from an 80% sure things to a 20% sure thing, and simple math will tell you that you usually lose out on a LOT more than you get by doing so. my history of rebounds would attest to that, yes! quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan I am not saying that this is what happened what I am saying is that she got out of a relationship that wasn't working and it would seem got into a relationship with the only drive being the BDSM Lifestyle and once she got it realized she didn't set up the Love and trust and compassion and STABILITY that all relationships need regardless of BDSM. So in the end, you can blame the asshole all you want, but if she doesn't smarten up and start to realize that being in a BDSM relationship is no different than being in a Vanilla Relationship and start the foundation from a Honest and Communicated place this kind of thing will happen again and it will always be the "Guy's" Fault and you friend will never realize it's her Picker that is faulty, she needs to start thinking with the Logical part of her head and not the Fantasy part cause it's leading her astray. QSM Again, a little harsh, but also true. I don't like to wander through the world doubting and mistrusting people, assuming the worst, but yes, a bit of a reality check and a certain amount of caution is needed. She was in a marriage for many many years though, and this was the relationship she started at the end of it, so it's not like she's been swimming around the dating pool all these years and figured out these lessons herself along the way. \ Your insight is appreciated QSM!

January -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 1:29:05 PM)
Hi HisSweetElysium, You are a good friend to her! She's lucky to have you. But your anger at her kink dream man's supposed betrayal is blinding you to certain selfish and unreasonable aspects of your friend's character. I agree with most of the other posters. As much of a jerk as her kink man was, your friend did not behave rationally. She uprooted her teenage son to pursue a fantasy man, and it didn't work out. She made the move based on some superficial knowledge of this man and very little understanding about BDSM. I don't buy her as a victim, although you clearly do. Rather than worry about her leaving kink or not, or whether she gets to go to play parties, I wish you would encourage your friend to repair the relationship she has with her son... You see, I think the relationship between your friend and her boy is the true and ONLY primary relationship in your story. The betrayal is by HER. Because she owes a duty to her offspring. Unlike the kink man, who from day one made no real commitment to her, and did not owe her supreme care and protection. Okay, here's why I'm upset. So, she moved across the country so she could indulge in some BDSM fun. Did she give any thought to how the move would affect her son? Did it even matter? He didn't have friends? A school he was familiar with? She put the security and comfort of her son way, way below acting on her hedonistic fantasy pleasures. And now (due to "poor choices" by the boy) she's been kicked out of her apartment. Any chance your friend might eventually understand her responsibility for her son's choices? Neglect perhaps? Any chance she might grow up? Unlike your friend, I only have one, single tiny little PhD. But even so, as a mother, I recognize my first duty is to my child. Then, if that's taken care of (it's a complex, arduous, exciting and constant effort), I'll have my hedonistic fun. January

JstAnotherSub -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 1:47:06 PM)
she needs to put on her big girl panties and make some wiser decisions. if not for her self, for her child.... i see you think of her as a friend, but to me, anyone who would uproot them self like that....well......bless their heart is all i can say.

HisSweetElysium -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 1:54:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub she needs to put on her big girl panties and make some wiser decisions. if not for her self, for her child.... i see you think of her as a friend, but to me, anyone who would uproot them self like that....well......bless their heart is all i can say. this is for both of the last 2 posters. Yes. I will agree with both of you. but I have never EVER gotten anywhere trying to tell anyone how to parent their child, so I've stayed out of that piece of all of this entirely.

crazyml -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 3:16:42 PM)
Crikey! What a lot of judgment! It may very well be that HisSweetElysium's friend did exercise really poor judgement and that this situation may be partly her fault. And as HisSweetElysium says herself: quote: There are two sides to every story But, I have to say that it's a little too easy to use our 20-20 hindsight and declare that HisSweetElysium's friend was foolish, too quick to jump, etc etc The posters who argue that HisSweetElysium's friend needs to take some responsibility for her actions are no doubt right. And, I get the impression from HisSweetElysium's description that her friend is smart enough to know that too. I think DesFTP (who is someone whose posts I really value) is being a little harsh in saying quote: tell her not to lie to herself in future that she can be okay if he has others. On reading the OP, I think there's a pretty big distinction between this person agreeing to allow him to play with others from time to time vs agreeing to a full-on poly relationship. In retrospect, it may seem foolish but at the time it may not have been such a big thing. I don't agree with AQuietSimpleMan's take either: quote: In the end your friend jumped into a relationship far too quickly I think if they'd been dating for 9months, even in an LDR that's not obviously "too quick" in my opinion. And this... quote: So in the end, you can blame the asshole all you want, but if she doesn't smarten up and start to realize that being in a BDSM relationship is no different than being in a Vanilla Relationship and start the foundation from a Honest and Communicated place this kind of thing will happen again and it will always be the "Guy's" Fault and you friend will never realize it's her Picker that is faulty, she needs to start thinking with the Logical part of her head and not the Fantasy part cause it's leading her astray. I think this is more than a little OTT - Perhaps AQuietSimpleMan has never been taken for a ride by a dishonest partner, perhaps AQuietSimpleMan's "picker" is so well tuned that nothing like this would ever happen to him, and it that is the case then he's a wise man indeed. But I can say that while my "picker" is pretty well tuned, I've been deceived in the past. And yes... I did apportion a good chunk of the blame to the lying bastard who took me on such a nasty emotional journey - but Yes, I did have a few words with myself, and it has made me more circumspect - so I did take my share of responsibility and (more importantly) I learnt and grew a little from the experience. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but you know, even the smartest of us, the most adept at spotting sketchiness, the most cynical can be taken by a really excellent liar. FWIW (whish isn't much!)- HisSweetElysium, I think the Dom in question is a nasty piece of work. I don't think your friend should waste too much time blaming herself for believing what seems to me like a really well-excecuted string of lies - Sure she'll reflect on this, and I hope she grows stronger as a result, but given your description of her and your "two sides to every story" caveat I get the impression that she's plenty smart enough to review this saga with the same dazzling hindsight as the rest of us. The real key is to use her smarts to move on - somewhat wiser, perhaps less trusting but hopefully a lot stronger. I wish her and you well. [teensy edit for the one typo I spotted - if there are others, my apols!]

January -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 4:00:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HisSweetElysium this is for both of the last 2 posters. Yes. I will agree with both of you. but I have never EVER gotten anywhere trying to tell anyone how to parent their child, so I've stayed out of that piece of all of this entirely. Yeah, I do understand about not wanting to tell somebody how to raise their kid. Most parents would react poorly. You'd likely lose her as a friend. But even if you don't ever confront her about a mother's duty to a child, preferring to sympathize with her and the supposed Dom's duty to her, there IS a kid. The existence of a child (without any 20/20 hindsight concerning the suitability of the supposed Dom) makes her cross-country trip for some man (vanilla or not, poly or not) alarming and careless. No doubt now she's planning to pack it up, uprooting her son again. I'm thinking that your unconditional support of this woman is enabling her self-absorbed drama. Even if you can't solve her problems, please recognize that she is hurting her child. January

Viridana -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 4:10:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml I think if they'd been dating for 9months, even in an LDR that's not obviously "too quick" in my opinion. We're gonna have to fundimentally disagree on that. If you're gonna uproot your kid and move with him/her hundreds of miles away, you better be damn sure you're doing the right thing, not only for you, but for the kid as well, and dating someone for measly 9 months online/LDR is in no way sufficient time in my mind to be able to be sure.

DarkSteven -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 4:40:36 PM)
Sub frenzy. First BDSM affair, first affair after divorce, she got in over her head with an asshole. Sorry it happened.

HisSweetElysium -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 5:02:42 PM)
I don't know for sure, but it is my general understanding that the son was living with his dad and doing very poorly there. When she discussed moving, he begged to come with her. She did not move in with this man, or merge finances, etc. so in light of lots of things I've seen on these boards, I think she did handle it much better than some. Ideal? no not at all, but I don't think it was as off the cuff as it sounds. I do appreciate everyone's replies though, negative or otherwise, it's a tough position to be in, to want to help, but be able to do nothing except listen...

GraciousLady -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 5:03:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Viridana quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml I think if they'd been dating for 9months, even in an LDR that's not obviously "too quick" in my opinion. We're gonna have to fundimentally disagree on that. If you're gonna uproot your kid and move with him/her hundreds of miles away, you better be damn sure you're doing the right thing, not only for you, but for the kid as well, and dating someone for measly 9 months online/LDR is in no way sufficient time in my mind to be able to be sure. I agree with crazyml. I was in a LDR for a solid year and knew his family. He moved in with me and in 1 week I knew he had lied to me. I put him out at 7 weeks. 9 months isn't really enough time to get to know someone well if they live in your area much less long distance. But, we all follow our hearts and sadly we often get messed up.

OrpheusAgonistes -> RE: Being a good friend-Rant enclosed (4/5/2010 5:11:50 PM)
There are at least three sides to this particular story. One side, the guy's, doesn't interest me much. Maybe he had good intentions at some point. Maybe he had his reasons. Maybe your friend is one of those smart, damaged people with a knack for orchestrating their own disasters and using half-aware three-quarters guilty accomplices to spice up the catastrophe. Maybe he's a complete sociopath who should be drawn and quartered. As long as he's out of the picture, then all of his damage is a problem for someone else. Your friend and her kid are the only sides of the story that matter much at this point. Passing moral judgment on her doesn't interest me--she did what she did and she is where she is and she's lucky things didn't turn out worse. You seem like a decent person with good judgment. In situations like this, the only way I can usually think to be a "good friend" is to help the person take some kind of inventory of their lives and their decision-making tendencies. Several people have suggested helping her "get back out there." But ask yourself, does that sound like a good idea right now? I don't think it matters if she's at some BDSM scene event or a singles bar on on a dating site or hanging out in a music chat room or waiting to pay for her groceries right now she's clearly damaged, wounded, and sending out some pretty serious vibes to emotional predators. Based on the information given, despite her intelligence and professional competence she seems, for whatever reason, very poor at fending off emotional predators. The intelligence and professional prestige, incidentally, not only won't help her fend them off but it makes her much more of a trophy for guys who get off on using, manipulating, and then completely fucking over women. There's a limit to your obligations as a friend. You don't have to suffer for her sins. You don't have to fix her. But it might be a good idea (if I'm reading this situation right) to make an effort to help her see that her decision making is broken in some alarmingly fundamental ways right now and that the situation she went through can either be a turning point or a grim omen of even worse disasters to come. It's really all up to her.

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