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RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 9:19:32 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		Two things:

1. The historical timing of events is everything, and
2. I was answering thompson's "remotely resembling" question.

Neither of which have you accomplished.
The magnitude of the coventry bombings is short by multiple orders of magnitude to both the Tokyo and Dresden bombings.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 201
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 10:27:14 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		thompson,

1.
a. Why did the Allies adopt the concept of targeting civilian population centers?

b. Who did it first, the Axis or the Allies?

2.

If you don't see that the bombing of Coventry certainly has similarities between the later Allied bombings of Tokyo and Dresden, then ... was your challenge to find Axis bombings "remotely resembling" simple a rhetorical mechanism, with no real desire to enter into a discussion?

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 4/7/2010 10:28:01 AM >

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 202
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 11:10:24 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

No.

I didn't say that you can't understand because you weren't there.

I said:

1. "people who don't understand anything about the physical and moral stress of war other than what they see in the movies, and on TV"

We should look past those who rape the locals as well because..God help them..They are under some stress.

Have at it. An atrocity is such and no amount of spin will change that for some.

This means that he was likely ignorant (a correctable condition) of the training for, and short and long term effects of the type of stress these people endure. He doesn't had to have served: he does have to have more than a modicum of understanding of life in extermis.

2. "extrapolate moral indifference"

Because that is what some are doing. "Extrapolate" means to infer by extending knowledge. Since there is already a lack of basic knowledge, attempting to extend that knowledge will tend to error.

3. "with a small, deceiving edited and presented window into the reality"

I look right past their intent and comment on the substance.

As has been mentioned already, the video and it's presentation is designed to maximize the damage to certain parties. In otherwords, it's propaganda, regardless of how much "truth" it may contain. It's designed and presented to assist you in forming the "correct" opinion.

You evidently happen right by the obvious because you have a military bias..I see things clearly on the other-hand.

Yes they edited it but that doesn't change my point in the least and if you had half a brain cell you might be able to excise that from your thickheaded noggin.

Instead of looking for "a bullshit" excuse to throw rancor and dissent with your morally superior, smug attitude, perhaps you should consider that the slight possibility exists that you (and some of your compatriots) are indeed ignorant of, and inexperienced in some of the things you debate.

I'm not sure how people "extrapolate" that I'm being smug because I call bullshit on clearly an illogical and irrational response but go for it.

I suppose you have the inside scoop? Let me answer that for you Governor...You do not.

Firm



It's been fun as usual.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
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(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 203
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 11:33:11 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
You miss Firms point Domi. Just because there were not as many deaths, its doesnt detract from the fact that Coventry was carpet bombed. As for the article quoted, it was 100% correct when it was written, which was some 5 years before Dresden was attacked.


Spot on, polite.

Firm




Not going to argue that there were similarities in the attacks on both towns, Coventry and Dresden, in that they were both bombed by aircraft.

The attack on Coventry preceded the attack on Dresden.

From what I have read the attack on Coventry was an attack on strategic targets while Dresden was primarily an attack on a population.

Eight times more tonnage was dropped on Dresden then Coventry.

At the time maybe the Coventry attack might have been viewed as carpet bombing...I can see the connection in that perhaps a thousand deaths might have seemed a huge loss at the time.

Are they similar, sure...Like comparing the Wright brothers flight to a moon shot.


< Message edited by domiguy -- 4/7/2010 11:34:32 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 204
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 11:56:14 AM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline 		Double the BS, double the fun... if you like BS.

Honestly, though, the argument that you have to know war to have a stand on it is beyond stupid.

I will never agree to engage in war, and I will always oppose it, because it's obviously destroying everything of value in the world, including any shred of moral agency remaining for those involved.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 205
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 12:08:41 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		I saw a bumper sticker...Firm, I think it was on a Prius that said, "I am already against the next war."

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Profile   Post #: 206
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 12:48:20 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		domi,

It's called escalation.

How many of the homes and non-military buildings destroyed in Coventry were valid military targets?

The later Allied bombings were certainly different in magnitude, but not all that different otherwise.

There has been a long running historical argument about this issue, and I'm not expecting to resolve it here.  However, it is generally recongnized that the growing indiscriminate German bombings in England lead to the doctrine of "carpet bombing" and "total war".

I"m not necessarily saying that without the Germany activities such as Coventry that "total war" would never have occurred.  To the contrary, I really don't think that there was any way to avoid it.

However, attempts to simply paint the Allies as moral monsters who just up and decided one day to kill as many civilians as possible are simply single dimensional points of view, and fail to take into account a lot of factors, including the Axis's own activities.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 207
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 12:53:05 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		If you don't see that the bombing of Coventry certainly has similarities between the later Allied bombings of Tokyo and Dresden, then ... was your challenge to find Axis bombings "remotely resembling" simple a rhetorical mechanism, with no real desire to enter into a discussion?

You are being obtuse.
As has been pointed out no one will disagree that all three cities were bombed from the air.  If that is your point then it is moronic at best.
It has also been pointed out that the bombing of Coventry was against military targets while the bombings of Dresden and Tokyo were directed at civilian targets.
The difference in tonnage as well as the difference in purpose and result make Coventry seem quite pale by comparison.
If this is your attempt at discussion you are still lacking that essential element...The desire to actually discuss.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 208
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 1:01:35 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Its a good thing youre at least a two hour drive from here..........



Bit of a risky drive in a Toyota eh, E  ?

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Profile   Post #: 209
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 1:01:45 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

Double the BS, double the fun... if you like BS.

Honestly, though, the argument that you have to know war to have a stand on it is beyond stupid.

I've never made that claim.

My claim was that you and others do not understand stress, stressful situations, training and how people handle such situations.

Having military experience in wartime, in a war zone is certainly helpful in understanding that.  Having combat military training in the absence of combat experience is also helpful.

Having any experiences in which you are exposed to deadly, intense stress is helpful.

The study of human nature and how the mind works under and after such stress is helpful.

Sometimes, just living a long time will give you a vantage into the human soul.

Sometimes, deep and intense reflection and philosophical training will give you an idea about the human personality.

My point was that you (and a few self identified others) display little or no appreciation of the deeper side of human nature in such situations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

I will never agree to engage in war, and I will always oppose it, because it's obviously destroying everything of value in the world, including any shred of moral agency remaining for those involved.


If you "will never engage in war" due to your deeply held religious beliefs, I commend you.

If you "will never engage in war" due to a lack of courage to defend the people and beliefs you hold dear, then I brand you a coward.

Since I can't know which category you fit, I'll let you decide whether you are a saint or a sinner..

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 4/7/2010 1:17:17 PM >

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 210
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 1:11:38 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

No.

I didn't say that you can't understand because you weren't there.

I said:

1. "people who don't understand anything about the physical and moral stress of war other than what they see in the movies, and on TV"

We should look past those who rape the locals as well because..God help them..They are under some stress.

Have at it. An atrocity is such and no amount of spin will change that for some.

This means that he was likely ignorant (a correctable condition) of the training for, and short and long term effects of the type of stress these people endure. He doesn't had to have served: he does have to have more than a modicum of understanding of life in extermis.

2. "extrapolate moral indifference"

Because that is what some are doing. "Extrapolate" means to infer by extending knowledge. Since there is already a lack of basic knowledge, attempting to extend that knowledge will tend to error.

3. "with a small, deceiving edited and presented window into the reality"

I look right past their intent and comment on the substance.

As has been mentioned already, the video and it's presentation is designed to maximize the damage to certain parties. In otherwords, it's propaganda, regardless of how much "truth" it may contain. It's designed and presented to assist you in forming the "correct" opinion.

You evidently happen right by the obvious because you have a military bias..I see things clearly on the other-hand.

Yes they edited it but that doesn't change my point in the least and if you had half a brain cell you might be able to excise that from your thickheaded noggin.

Instead of looking for "a bullshit" excuse to throw rancor and dissent with your morally superior, smug attitude, perhaps you should consider that the slight possibility exists that you (and some of your compatriots) are indeed ignorant of, and inexperienced in some of the things you debate.

I'm not sure how people "extrapolate" that I'm being smug because I call bullshit on clearly an illogical and irrational response but go for it.

I suppose you have the inside scoop? Let me answer that for you Governor...You do not.

Firm



It's been fun as usual.



Poor organizational and presentation skills often mirror the inability to reason and think clearly.

Try again, with more clarity, and less emotionally laden charges, and we can discuss it.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 211
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 1:14:58 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

If you don't see that the bombing of Coventry certainly has similarities between the later Allied bombings of Tokyo and Dresden, then ... was your challenge to find Axis bombings "remotely resembling" simple a rhetorical mechanism, with no real desire to enter into a discussion?

You are being obtuse.
As has been pointed out no one will disagree that all three cities were bombed from the air.  If that is your point then it is moronic at best.
It has also been pointed out that the bombing of Coventry was against military targets while the bombings of Dresden and Tokyo were directed at civilian targets.
The difference in tonnage as well as the difference in purpose and result make Coventry seem quite pale by comparison.
If this is your attempt at discussion you are still lacking that essential element...The desire to actually discuss.


Tell me thompson ... did you not bring up the concept of "total war"?

What does that mean?

What is a valid military target under that concept?

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 212
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 1:27:39 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

Double the BS, double the fun... if you like BS.

Honestly, though, the argument that you have to know war to have a stand on it is beyond stupid.

I will never agree to engage in war, and I will always oppose it, because it's obviously destroying everything of value in the world, including any shred of moral agency remaining for those involved.

So it is your position that there is never a justification for war, or entering one? That position leads to a very interesting logical conclussion, I hope you have thought out your position completely. Enjoy the ramifications if the majority of folks ever come to that same conclussion, then again I suppose you won't have to worry too much about expressing how you feel about the new regime.

Enjoy your utopian daydreams, some of us are just a bit more pragmatic.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 213
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 4:29:02 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

Poor organizational and presentation skills often mirror the inability to reason and think clearly.

Try again, with more clarity, and less emotionally laden charges, and we can discuss it.

Firm

Simple personal attacking comebacks when a person can't deal with the stress of truth in said rational reasoning.

There are many more forms and signs of intelligence than your narrow view of the world seems to support.

Such is life though with some.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 4/7/2010 4:30:42 PM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 214
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 4:43:37 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

Double the BS, double the fun... if you like BS.

Honestly, though, the argument that you have to know war to have a stand on it is beyond stupid.

I will never agree to engage in war, and I will always oppose it, because it's obviously destroying everything of value in the world, including any shred of moral agency remaining for those involved.


It's a simple persons stance.

One of the things I'm working on for myself is walking away from such idiots and their myopic views. It's enjoyable discussing things when people are doing that and not trying to win a prize, look cool or raise themselves in some manor above others by pointing out how smart they think they are because they are sure their typing skills say so for them.

But the whole human race is genetically hard-wired to be the big chimp on campus I suppose..That's another topic.

Never have done well with grooming other monkeys.




_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 215
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 4:49:11 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

Double the BS, double the fun... if you like BS.

Honestly, though, the argument that you have to know war to have a stand on it is beyond stupid.

I will never agree to engage in war, and I will always oppose it, because it's obviously destroying everything of value in the world, including any shred of moral agency remaining for those involved.

So it is your position that there is never a justification for war, or entering one? That position leads to a very interesting logical conclussion, I hope you have thought out your position completely. Enjoy the ramifications if the majority of folks ever come to that same conclussion, then again I suppose you won't have to worry too much about expressing how you feel about the new regime.

Enjoy your utopian daydreams, some of us are just a bit more pragmatic.


I don't know about being justified in these days but sometimes needed as much as I wish it were different.

As for Utopian..He's got the right to make his stand based on religion if that's what it's about...One of the reasons this country was founded was religious freedom if I remember my history correctly.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 216
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 4:57:52 PM   
Eigenaar


Posts: 352
Joined: 5/3/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

Double the BS, double the fun... if you like BS.

Honestly, though, the argument that you have to know war to have a stand on it is beyond stupid.

I will never agree to engage in war, and I will always oppose it, because it's obviously destroying everything of value in the world, including any shred of moral agency remaining for those involved.

So it is your position that there is never a justification for war, or entering one? That position leads to a very interesting logical conclussion, I hope you have thought out your position completely. Enjoy the ramifications if the majority of folks ever come to that same conclussion, then again I suppose you won't have to worry too much about expressing how you feel about the new regime.

Enjoy your utopian daydreams, some of us are just a bit more pragmatic.


I don't know about being justified in these days but sometimes needed as much as I wish it were different.

As for Utopian..He's got the right to make his stand based on religion if that's what it's about...One of the reasons this country was founded was religious freedom if I remember my history correctly.

I wonder why the (European) Americans denied others religious freedom when religious freedom was one of the reasons your country was ''founded'' according to you. Or did the history lessons not speak of the genocide performed on the natives?

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 217
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 5:00:59 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		Tell me thompson ... did you not bring up the concept of "total war"?

Nope

What does that mean?

You are fishing shark boy... why dont you just say what is on your mind.


What is a valid military target under that concept?


You know quite well what defines a valid military target. 
"Civilized" people have rules .

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 218
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 5:05:39 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		"Civilised people have rules."
Just what are those rules during a period of "total war "...pray tell enlighten us?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/7/2010 5:16:32 PM   
beurprincessSir


Posts: 1
Joined: 12/28/2005
Status: offline 		I saw the video on the news this evening. Having a daughter,who is a marine, and went to Iraq 3 times, I feel that I experienced thru my many conversations with my daughter, what it was like being in Iraq and dealing with the conflict. I think we all need to remember that we are talking about a war zone here. The news stated that at the time the video was shot ( I think 2007) it was against the law to carry a firearm in public. The whole reason the helicopter was dispatched to that area was because it was not secure and they did what they were sent to do. The reporters made the decision to put themselves in harm's way to report on the war and unforturnetly they died in the process. The dumbass parents who took there children ( in the van) into that particular conflict area are responsible for them being there and being injured. Maybe it is viewed by many that the comments made by the soldiers were harsh and uncalled for but I will simply say this.......Until you have walked in their shoes and been thru what the service personnel have gone thru.....don't judge!!!!!!! They were doing the job they were sent to do.......to terminate the enemy.....and restore the safety to that area.

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 220
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