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RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/10/2010 4:58:10 PM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

What do you feel was the reason that the U.S. took such high losses compared to the Britts in their bomber forces?

You know Tommie I have tried to simply ignore you...

No you have not.

I resisted commenting on Firms last post ...where hi mildly suggessted to you that you're way and manner of responding to folks around here might just tend to cast you in a negative light....

As opposed to your tourette syndrome approach

Oh how I wanted to post....in very large type....YA THINK.
But I resisted and than you come back with this weak assed shit.Do you really think that I am not aware that we,the American forces conducted the daylight raids in what was basically 24 hr bombing(and just for you I will state that the brits did the night time runs)Shall i go a little farther and explain to the terminally dense how daylight runs tend to lead to higher casualty rates?

You did mention once that you were an amature historian so I just assumed you already knew all that shit. So with that said let me ask you again.
What do you feel was the reason that the U.S. took such high losses compared to the Britts in their bomber forces?
We know going in that the AAF felt the 17's could protect themselves. When it was found that they could not then why do you feel the AAF persist in this obviously flawed plan?

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 4/10/2010 5:01:40 PM >

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 281

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/10/2010 5:31:40 PM

slvemike4u

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Aww shit tommie,ignoring you isn't half as much fun as toying with you.
There were a few factors at play....the first and the most obvious was Daylight bombing....The second,at least prior to D-Day was to mollify Uncle Joe....we ,the western allies needed to do something,anything on the continent while we prepared for the invasion.....an invasion that at least from Uncle Joe's perspective couldn't come soon enough....from the English perspective couldn't be put off long enough....and we,well we felt '44 was just about right(a little Goldilocks thing I threw in there for free).
And than their was the third and perhaps the most pernicious of the reasons such an horrendous loss rate was accepted.Army Air power proponents were out to prove a pet theory.....they held that Air power alone could bring the Reich to it's knees.
Traditional Army proponents didn't and still don't buy such heresy....they felt and still feel nothing replaces boots on the ground(I happen to agree with them).
Now I have to run out to the store...so you grade my answers....come back with your usual nasty and condescending reply....and we can pick it up from there,okay tommie.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 282

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/10/2010 5:45:01 PM

JstAnotherSub

Posts: 6174
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i couldnt find a CATFIGHT smiley dang it.

_____________________________

yep

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 283

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/10/2010 5:45:02 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Aww shit tommie,ignoring you isn't half as much fun as toying with you.

Well you said you were so now you are not so that would mean you lied.

There were a few factors at play....the first and the most obvious was Daylight bombing....

Yes it was concluded that it did not work.

The second,at least prior to D-Day was to mollify Uncle Joe....we ,the western allies needed to do something,anything on the continent while we prepared for the invasion.....an invasion that at least from Uncle Joe's perspective couldn't come soon enough....from the English perspective couldn't be put off long enough....and we,well we felt '44 was just about right(a little Goldilocks thing I threw in there for free).

So you are saying that we let thousands of airmen dies uselessly to make Stalin happy?
In Churchill's account of WWII he quotes Stalin as complaining that all the allied bombing in Europe was not helping him and what he wanted was an invasion of Europe to take a little pressure off of his armies. So that does not hold much water.

And than their was the third and perhaps the most pernicious of the reasons such an horrendous loss rate was accepted.Army Air power proponents were out to prove a pet theory.....they held that Air power alone could bring the Reich to it's knees.

This theory does hold some validity if the bombers can get to the target. Until the AAF got fighter escort it seems foolish to feed men and equipment into a black hole.

Traditional Army proponents didn't and still don't buy such heresy....they felt and still feel nothing replaces boots on the ground(I happen to agree with them).
Now I have to run out to the store...so you grade my answers....come back with your usual nasty and condescending reply....and we can pick it up from there,okay tommie.

I simply ask your opinion. Hard to grade an opinion.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 284

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/10/2010 5:51:24 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

i couldnt find a CATFIGHT smiley dang it.

Please do not dignify this with the name fight.
Some people enjoy being spanked in public...
I,being the consumate giver, try to help wield the paddle from time to time.

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)

Post #: 285

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/10/2010 6:08:39 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

i couldnt find a CATFIGHT smiley dang it.

Please do not dignify this with the name fight.
Some people enjoy being spanked in public...
I,being the consumate giver, try to help wield the paddle from time to time.

Okay,seems you actually like what you refer to as the tourettes syndrome approach.....You are an arrogant condescending little prick.
Ya know...that does feel better.
A couple of things..Stalin was ,perhaps with reason not to be mollified by the bombing...this in and of itself does not mean it was not a factor in the continuing to do so despite the heavy losses....just because Uncle Joe didn't like the bone he was being thrown doesn't mean the western powers were prepared to switch bones......asshole!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 286

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/11/2010 2:40:43 AM

Vuurpaard

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Joined: 4/26/2008
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What the majority of posters in this thread are saying is it is okay to kill human beings, including Americans, because they can become a threat in the future and that it is a natural thing to kill others when you have the means. How does this relate to other crimes? The majority of users in this thread is in favour of closing all prisons or should other crimes still have a penalty?

< Message edited by Vuurpaard -- 4/11/2010 3:10:56 AM >

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 287

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/11/2010 2:55:40 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vuurpaard

What the majority of posters in this thread are saying is it is okay to kill human beings, including Americans, because they can become a thread in the future and that it is a natural thing to kill others when you have the means. How does this relate to other crimes? The majority of users in this thread is in favour of closing all prisons or should other crimes still have a penalty?

I suppose the reply would be something like: "all's fair in love and war".

Well...yeah...I suppose anyone wanting to reduce themselves to the nature of the beast - then it will all be fair.

For those of us who prefer the more civilised aspects of human nature - such as knowledge sharing/co-operation/diplomacy etc - then we would take a non-interventionist stance.

There's not much use in people repeating the mantra: "you own your actions" which is oft cited on these boards.....but when it comes to war: "well...you know...that's war it sort of overtakes you"....the inference being that you don't own your actions due to the inevitable nature of such incidents.

So which is it: do you own your actions or not? Do you have a code of ethics which you stand by at all times - rather than just when it suits?

And you ask a good question: where it's natural to kill others - then why are we wasting our time with law and civilised institutions? and where this assumption is accepted then how would Libertarianism work when the conclusion is that we naturally want to kill one another?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Vuurpaard)

Post #: 288

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/11/2010 3:06:25 AM

Politesub53

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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

So you are saying that we let thousands of airmen dies uselessly to make Stalin happy?
In Churchill's account of WWII he quotes Stalin as complaining that all the allied bombing in Europe was not helping him and what he wanted was an invasion of Europe to take a little pressure off of his armies. So that does not hold much water.

Stalins view concerns only what was happening on the Eastern front. The views put forward by Albert Speer, Hitlers Armaments Minister show that the Germans thought differently. The effect of the bombing raids on Germany was to keep thousands of tons of arms, munitions, fighters and troops tied down for much of the war.

". No one has yet seen that this was the greatest lost battle on the German side."

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 289

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/11/2010 4:59:37 AM

Loki45

Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I'm surprised anyone should be surprised that this is the stock in trade of the shitstorm known as war. It aint like in the movies. Attempts to sanitise it are pointless.

Yeah, I guess all the countries in WWII were just murdering people wholesale. Carpet bombing never was pin-point accurate, after all.

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 290

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/11/2010 5:56:44 AM

MrRodgers

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Joined: 7/30/2005
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Still as reported, kids and journalists are not a threat. We are supposed to be killing people there just as the Brits that dressed up as Arabs and went machine-gunning people.

Put in jail, the Brits brought in a tank and 'blew' them out, then gave the appropriate apologies later.

Yes, this is an 'engagement' that is about oil, money and maintaining a military presence in the 'oil-rich' Persian gulf.

We must have a reason to be there and if one takes the time to notice...we'll provide it if necessary.

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 291

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/11/2010 7:57:32 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

So you are saying that we let thousands of airmen dies uselessly to make Stalin happy?
In Churchill's account of WWII he quotes Stalin as complaining that all the allied bombing in Europe was not helping him and what he wanted was an invasion of Europe to take a little pressure off of his armies. So that does not hold much water.

Stalins view concerns only what was happening on the Eastern front. The views put forward by Albert Speer, Hitlers Armaments Minister show that the Germans thought differently. The effect of the bombing raids on Germany was to keep thousands of tons of arms, munitions, fighters and troops tied down for much of the war.

". No one has yet seen that this was the greatest lost battle on the German side."

Polite...I would ask "why do you bother"...but I'm a piss-poor example aren't I....lol.
The guy doesn't want discussion or debate.....he just wants his opportunity to insult.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 292

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/11/2010 12:21:56 PM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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Stalins view concerns only what was happening on the Eastern front.

Absolutely. The eastern front was the war. Everything else just pales in comparison. The Germans attacked Russia with about six million men...The Russian were waiting for them with over ten million men. Africa,Italy,Normandy all put together amounts to a few million.
In December of 41 America is not in the war. Rommel and Alexander are dancing in Africa with a few hundred thousand total while Guderian attacks Moscow with two million men and fills up almost three hundred and fifty thousand german body bags before he can get away from the bear that is trying to eat him.
Stalin also pointed out that the Germans were not short of supplies so from his point of view the bombing was doing little to either occupy ground forces that could be used against him or air power that could have been used against him.

The views put forward by Albert Speer, Hitlers Armaments Minister show that the Germans thought differently.

William Manchester in his book "The Arms of Krupp" discusses how ineffective the Anglo-American bombing was on slowing down production at the Krupp factories. Krupp was one of the primary manufacturers of war materials.

The effect of the bombing raids on Germany was to keep thousands of tons of arms, munitions, fighters and troops tied down for much of the war.

The Rurh which was the closest and most often hit suffered only a 30% loss in productive capacity (this was not till late in the war 1944) as compared to about 20% for the rest of Germany.

". No one has yet seen that this was the greatest lost battle on the German side."

I would have to put several other battles on the top of the list.
Lenningrad kept over a million Germans occupied for almost three years.
Smolinsk marks the turning point and the vindication of Zuchoves plan.
Stalingrad...The surrender of a whole army with its field marshall.
Kursk...proof positive that the vaunted panzer was just a paper tiger.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 293

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/11/2010 12:27:50 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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Okay,seems you actually like what you refer to as the tourettes syndrome approach.....You are an arrogant condescending little prick.
Ya know...that does feel better.

I have heard that there are meds that can be used to control that.

A couple of things..Stalin was ,perhaps with reason not to be mollified by the bombing...this in and of itself does not mean it was not a factor in the continuing to do so despite the heavy losses....just because Uncle Joe didn't like the bone he was being thrown doesn't mean the western powers were prepared to switch bones......asshole!

So you really do not have an opinion on this subject and just want an opportunity to expand your vituperative vocabulary.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 294

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/11/2010 12:39:13 PM

slvemike4u

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From: United States
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Simply amazing...You are so blinded by your obvious Sovietism that you refuse to admit even the obvious. Whether or not Stalin thought the Air offensive effective.Whether or not Speer thought it effective....whether or not it was in reality effective...the reality was it was all the western Allies were willing/able to do on the continent till '43 when they invaded Italy proper...in an attempt to attack waht Churchill referred to as the "soft underbelly" of Fortress Europe...and '44 when they landed in France.
So what do we have here...you asked for reasons the Air offensive was continued in the face of such appaling losses...I gave you a number of reasons...all valid and all in fact playing some part in the decision making proccess.How do you respond?...well others can read how you respond and judge for themselves just how correct and justified I am when I refer to you as an asshole!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 295

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/11/2010 1:23:11 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

You are an arrogant condescending little prick.

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 296

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/11/2010 2:43:59 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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Me?...really ?...I'm sorry you feel thhat way.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to thishereboi)

Post #: 297

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/11/2010 3:11:36 PM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Me?...really ?...I'm sorry you feel thhat way.

No, I don't feel like that towards you. I am sorry, I should have clarified. I just liked reading that so much in your original post that I wanted to see it again when I got to the end of the thread. So much truth in so few words

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 298

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/11/2010 3:54:15 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

Ahh,cool...I was a little confused,as I have been rather well blessed in the prick department

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to thishereboi)

Post #: 299

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our militar... - 4/11/2010 6:32:30 PM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Simply amazing...You are so blinded by your obvious Sovietism

Sovietism????One of mikey's new words???

that you refuse to admit even the obvious.

And what is obvious?

Whether or not Stalin thought the Air offensive effective.Whether or not Speer thought it effective....whether or not it was in reality effective...the reality was it was all the western Allies were willing/able to do on the continent till

That was not my question.
I asked your opinion as to why the AAF persisted in an obviously flawed program.

'43 when they invaded Italy proper...in an attempt to attack waht Churchill referred to as the "soft underbelly"

It did not turn out to be all that soft did it?

of Fortress Europe...and '44 when they landed in France.
So what do we have here...you asked for reasons the Air offensive was continued in the face of such appaling losses...I gave you a number of reasons...all valid and all in fact playing some part in the decision making proccess.How do you respond?

By rephrasing my question ,because (as stated previously) I was seeking your opinion and not a regurgitation of AAF propaganda.

...well others can read how you respond and judge for themselves just how correct and justified I am when I refer to you as an asshole!
Well of course you feel justified in calling me names ...it makes much more sense than actual discussion.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 300

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