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RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/9/2010 8:14:50 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious
I really am failing to understand the importance that people are putting on "power" and "control".  In any relationship be it BDSM or vanilla... a person has the right to end the relationship, and should, if the parties involved are no longer compatible or have lost the connection that brought and kept them together.
My personal and fairly cynical opinion? It's going for the sizzle, not the steak. "Power" and "Control" are blatant and obvious... "Kneel and blow me bitch!". They are easy to see and so provide instant gratification.

In my own head, I would modify your thought a bit...

For two people to each give themselves into the relationship -- each in their own way -- without reservation such that they become two indivisible parts of the whole.

Bluntly, I want to own Carol in the very literal sense of the word. And honestly, the only really viable price tag I can think of for a human being is another human being. If I'm not paying up in kind, then the relationship is inherently unbalanced and will eventually tumble to the ground like the house of cards it is.

We are the Borg. Resistance is futile.

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 4/9/2010 8:20:10 AM >

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to jbcurious)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/9/2010 8:21:54 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

How do you define power?

Strength.

quote:

What do s-types and D-types do that demonstrate their power?

Live, grow, thrive.

quote:

Who has power in your relationship?

The relationship itself.

quote:

I am especially curious about D-types feeling powerless and s-types feeling powerful in D/s relationships.

Feeling a lack of power in oneself is to be human.  When the relationship is powerful, then that is what matters.

We cannot fathom the ideals of power and control, as though his girl should be without either.  The power of our relationship makes us able.

the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to lucylucy)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/9/2010 9:05:31 AM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		Fuck the semantics. She either obeys, or is gone.
Label it whatever ya feel like it, wrap it up with fancy terms, write thesis about hair-splitting differences, I could care less.
In my house we do things on my terms or not at all.
Her opinions are occasionally asked, input is taken, hell, I even consider things like what's good for her, her headspace, and once I even thought about her feelings, but in the end we do as I decide and that's that.
That's how I like it. That's how she likes it. It's a happy shiny thing.

3 rules:
Serve, please, obey.




_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/9/2010 9:08:31 AM   
SirRussellP


Posts: 107
Joined: 1/10/2006
Status: offline 		We talk all the time about Power Exchange yet so many feel that the sub/slave gives up the power and that the Dom/Master takes it.  What you seem to forget is the word Exchange, each gives the other power, yes the type of power is different but still and exchange.

Leaving or release comes from when the Exchange dynamic is lost.

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/9/2010 9:26:06 AM   
jbcurious


Posts: 717
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		Yes Jeff, that's what I mean...

SirRussel as well, I like the emphasis on exchange.

_____________________________

'Smile... it's the second best thing to do with your lips.'


I have an explosive personality...


(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/9/2010 10:33:45 AM   
SirAldric


Posts: 6
Joined: 8/6/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy
The argument seems to go like this: because the s-partner can leave or withdraw consent at any time, he/she is the powerful one.

The simple fact that someone is in the position to do something drastic or dramatic, is not really power; by the same token it could be called 'weakness'. It depends on what the situation is and why things happen.
The 'power' to end a relation, quit your job or hurt someone are on the same level of being powerful or powerless. The word 'power' is a wrong terminology to describe a drastic event. More interesting is the question: was it wise to do so anyway?

Also, whether powerful or powerless, slave & Master would have the same equal power..
Furthermore, the 'power' to end a relation goes for any relation, not just M/s, therefore that type of 'power' is thus automatically not something which defines the dynamic of M/s.


(in reply to lucylucy)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/9/2010 10:50:36 AM   
Frankseas


Posts: 61
Joined: 1/16/2010
Status: offline 		As far as a Master/slave the power is decided on before they both agree to the contract. Not a written but more of a decided upon oral one that starts them on the way to trusting each other. The slave will submit herself to her Master giving him or her power and control over that slave.

Of course it is up to the wisdom of that Master, as well as common sense to not allow any harm to come to their chosen slave whether it is physical or mental. And open communication between the slave and Master must be in place so they both can grow together as partners, as players and hopefully as Lovers later on.

(in reply to SirAldric)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/9/2010 1:15:34 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirAldric

quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy
The argument seems to go like this: because the s-partner can leave or withdraw consent at any time, he/she is the powerful one.

The simple fact that someone is in the position to do something drastic or dramatic, is not really power; by the same token it could be called 'weakness'. It depends on what the situation is and why things happen.
The 'power' to end a relation, quit your job or hurt someone are on the same level of being powerful or powerless. The word 'power' is a wrong terminology to describe a drastic event. More interesting is the question: was it wise to do so anyway?

Also, whether powerful or powerless, slave & Master would have the same equal power..
Furthermore, the 'power' to end a relation goes for any relation, not just M/s, therefore that type of 'power' is thus automatically not something which defines the dynamic of M/s.




Keep this kind of nonsense up and you just might become a welcome addition! Very very insightful post and one that has given me food for thought so thank you.

(in reply to SirAldric)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/9/2010 2:39:45 PM   
Wolf2Bear


Posts: 3204
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirAldric

quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy
The argument seems to go like this: because the s-partner can leave or withdraw consent at any time, he/she is the powerful one.

The simple fact that someone is in the position to do something drastic or dramatic, is not really power; by the same token it could be called 'weakness'. It depends on what the situation is and why things happen.
The 'power' to end a relation, quit your job or hurt someone are on the same level of being powerful or powerless. The word 'power' is a wrong terminology to describe a drastic event. More interesting is the question: was it wise to do so anyway?

Also, whether powerful or powerless, slave & Master would have the same equal power..
Furthermore, the 'power' to end a relation goes for any relation, not just M/s, therefore that type of 'power' is thus automatically not something which defines the dynamic of M/s.




Keep this kind of nonsense up and you just might become a welcome addition! Very very insightful post and one that has given me food for thought so thank you.


Frankly both have equal power/authority to walk away from the relationship they are in. What label they identify with means dick squat regardles if it's a total mundane relationship or a full blown D/s or any variation between.


_____________________________

~Resident Sadist Approved~

Take the pain
Take the pleasure
I'm the master of both
Close your eyes, not your mind
Let me into your soul
I'm gonna work it 'til your totally blown

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/9/2010 2:48:42 PM   
reynardfox


Posts: 417
Joined: 9/8/2009
Status: offline 		Power given or allowed is a fantasy, it's not real. There is no such thing as power in a loving relationship, only roles that get played.You can play them well, and enjoy them, but it's not real. Everything we do is a holiday from reality.
Why anyone would want to categorise their relationship or BDSM type is nonsense to me. Life flies past us faster than the gulf stream, we have to live while we can, why waste your time pondering such abstractions?
Get hard, get wet, get living. We all have a spring to enjoy, it, like us, won't be here forever.

(in reply to lucylucy)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/9/2010 2:49:12 PM   
dvntskcuf


Posts: 8
Joined: 2/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger

There is an intimacy that comes only from knowing a person and accepting them. Of being fearless without masks in the prescence of another.

In finding that light and darkness are one. And in knowing in at least one place in a large cold world-a haven is waiting for you. 


beautifully stated!

(in reply to Smutmonger)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/10/2010 3:25:18 AM   
allyC


Posts: 778
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael ... If you want to date women with low self esteem, say a kajirah or something, that sort of petty emotionally manipulation works wonders.
 Why would you use a female slave as an example of a woman with low self esteem.  I'm genuinely curious. Well wishes,
Cav's ally

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/10/2010 3:42:38 AM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

I would argue that the words "power" and "control" both are myths that defy crisp definition.



This.

Power and control go right along with things like love and trust, they don't exist in the material world, only in the constructs of our minds. If I see someone as "powerful" and respond to him as such, then he will have the "power" to influence me unless or until I no longer see him as "powerful", then he would lose his "power" with me. And that's the long and the short of it. No one has the power by definition or circumstance (ie dom/sub). It's more about how one is perceived and responded to by another person/s.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/10/2010 3:59:19 AM   
pyroaquatic


Posts: 1535
Joined: 12/4/2006
From: Pyroaquatica
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy

There have been a few threads lately in which the idea that the submissive partner (sub, slave, property, etc.) has all the power in a D/s relationship has come up. The argument seems to go like this: because the s-partner can leave or withdraw consent at any time, he/she is the powerful one. Aside from the fact that a Dom can leave any time, too, I don't get the logic to the argument. As I explained it in one thread, I think equating "the power to leave" with "real power" is a mistake. Isn't that like saying that because my house would be worth a ton of money if I sold it, I have a lot of money? Only if I sell my house, which I don't plan to do. Up until the moment I sell the house, I have very little money (if any). I see the leaving as power thing similarly. Until the moment I leave, where's my power?

In my mind, power is about control, and if all I can control is when I leave, I just don't see how that's "all the power" in the relationship. If I'm with someone for 20 years and for 20 years my power amounts to being able to leave, can it really be siad that for 20 years I had "all the power" in the relationship? I just don't see it. Furthermore, if the sub has "all the power," that means the Dom is powerless. Now that I really don't see.

How do you define power? What do s-types and D-types do that demonstrate their power? Who has power in your relationship?

I am especially curious about D-types feeling powerless and s-types feeling powerful in D/s relationships.


Everyone submits eventually. Be it Gravity, Time, Mass, Velocity, yadda

In an intimate relationship the S-Type gives hir power to the D-Type. The D-Type retains power of hir own but accepts the S-Type's Power.
quote:


S-Type          D-type
Rejects          Rejects
Rejects          Accepts
Accepts         Rejects
Accepts         Accepts


There is a literary term... Suspension of Disbelief. I'm not sure where I was going with that thought. Until I get some coffee some one else will have to connect the dots.




_____________________________

You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.
-Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV.4.5

(in reply to lucylucy)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/10/2010 5:09:52 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious

I really am failing to understand the importance that people are putting on "power" and "control".  In any relationship be it BDSM or vanilla... a person has the right to end the relationship, and should, if the parties involved are no longer compatible or have lost the connection that brought and kept them together.

The words that LnT posted were so beautiful to me... to give myself to someone to such a degree that they in turn accept to such a degree that we become a necessity to each other... completing a need that we both have... is all that seems important to me.

But then I´m new... and may be looking at to simply.

I agree; you can't understand the answers people give to this question when they fail to define what they mean by 'power' in their answer. "Power" has infinite meanings. But a few things that it doesn't mean....

The OP's very question, for starters. If you're gonna ask "who has the power in a relationship", then it's a nonsense answer to say the sub has because she can leave. For starters, there is no relationship if one leaves, so the answer's either wrong or there was no point to the question to begin with.

And secondly, those who advocate such an idiotic answer spectacularly fail everytime to explain why it is they think the Dominant doesn't have EXACTLY the same "power" to leave, themselves. If the same is true for both (AND IT *IS*), then the poster has failed to answer the question. And it's largely because they've first failed to meaningfully define 'power' to support their answer. IE, what it is the sub has that the Dom doesn't....

What's left from there is that one of the most intriguing D/s topics (power, control, authority etc) ends up a jumble of largely SPAM answers that serve only to confuse rather than enlighten.

People, *everyone* has power but we're not all drawn to everyone else. So to answer the question properly, ask yourselves what it is that generally attracts you to an 'x' type but not a 'y' or 'z'. And do any of the idiots I previously referred to actually commit to a relationship just so they can experience the dubious "power" of leaving it?

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to jbcurious)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/11/2010 8:23:55 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: allyC

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael ... If you want to date women with low self esteem, say a kajirah or something, that sort of petty emotionally manipulation works wonders.
 Why would you use a female slave as an example of a woman with low self esteem.  I'm genuinely curious. Well wishes,
Cav's ally


I'll give you one guess.

(in reply to allyC)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/11/2010 8:44:51 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy


How do you define power?



Power to me is rather simple... It just the "Ability to Do!"

This doesn't state that one will do it! but they can!
This doesn't state that how this ability is acquired or what they can do with it!

In the end... power is only one side of the coin. The other side is character, values, beliefs, skills, ethics, morals etc of the person that has the ability to untilize said power!






_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to lucylucy)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/11/2010 9:05:11 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy
How do you define power?

Heh, since I just pulled my thoughts together on this topic this morning, I'll give it another go. Stolen directly from a favorite source of mine...

titles mean little in terms of real power, which is the capacity to influence and inspire

I think that about sums it up for me. If I can influence and inspire someone in a given direction, then they will do -- gladly and with energy -- that which I wish them to do.

It's worth commenting that, just as Knight said, this says nothing about whether I am wielding my power responsibly or or not. Other words come into play there.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to lucylucy)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/11/2010 9:22:40 AM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus
Consent is power.When you give it you are handing over control but only on your own terms. Whatever control the dominant has derives from the consent he was given by the submissive. To see that the submissive truly has the power in the dynamic you only need to look as far as some of the common conditions otherwise known as limits. When a submissive dictates the manner in which she will be dominated it's very clear who is in control.

Well I'm gobsmacked...!

I think your "two cents" is about the most conflicted and convoluted mess I've ever read.

I'm assuming from your screen name that you're a Dominant but after reading these somewhat bitter thoughts, I'm wondering why that hell you'd wanna torture yourself pursuing a relationship in what's apparently a humiliating role for you....

Focus.


If you inferred from my post that I am somehow bitter of feel humiliated I can assure you I am not. I'm in a great relationship with a wonderful submissive woman. I simply see this dynamic for what it is. Few are able to see the reality of it. I'm ok with that.


_____________________________

"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable." Sidney J. harris

(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/11/2010 9:30:08 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

....
When a submissive dictates the manner in which she will be dominated it's very clear who is in control.....


and what if they don't dictate the manner in which it shall occur? But instead, they do dictate the character of the person they will submit to!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to DomImus)
Profile   Post #: 60
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