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RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/9/2010 1:14:41 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I disagree with that obviously. one did in general and one in specific (and only after other methods failed, no such requirements in the other case).

So I do not simply see one as yes, and the other as no.

But that's to be expected, that we would be disagreeing at some point, right?

Ron

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RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/9/2010 3:00:02 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Did Bush order the assassination of an American citizen without due process, regardless of where they might be?  No.

Did Obama order the assassination of an American citizen without due process, regardless of where they might be?  Yes.

You see no moral or legal difference in the two cases?

Firm



Actually the answer to your first question is yes. Congress authorised attacks on any member of AQ, during Bush`s tenure.

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/9/2010 3:12:26 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Did Bush order the assassination of an American citizen without due process, regardless of where they might be?  No.

Did Obama order the assassination of an American citizen without due process, regardless of where they might be?  Yes.

You see no moral or legal difference in the two cases?

Firm



Actually the answer to your first question is yes. Congress authorised attacks on any member of AQ, during Bush`s tenure.


Was a specific individual American citizen, who was a member of AQ, targeted with assassination, regardless of where he was, or what he was doing?

If you say yes, please provide a link or reference to that individual, and the circumstances surrounding his death, or the order for his assassination.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 4/9/2010 3:13:19 PM >

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RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/9/2010 3:59:18 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: politesub53


Actually the answer to your first question is yes. Congress authorised attacks on any member of AQ, during Bush`s tenure.


quote:

Was a specific individual American citizen, who was a member of AQ, targeted with assassination, regardless of where he was, or what he was doing?


If you say yes, please provide a link or reference to that individual, and the circumstances surrounding his death, or the order for his assassination.

Firm


Dont be so silly Firm, a member of AQ is a member of AQ. I could just as easy ask you to provide a link which shows Congress authorised attacks on all members of AQ, unless they were American.

Edited to fix quotes

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 4/9/2010 4:02:09 PM >

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RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/9/2010 4:03:27 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		FR;

Finger pointing.  That is what I see lately.

The buck stops where?

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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/9/2010 4:21:49 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

FR;

Finger pointing.  That is what I see lately.

The buck stops where?



Building 7

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/9/2010 4:25:39 PM   
Thadius


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Status: offline 		LOL, and he politely lays the bait.... Here comes the herd of conspiracists, I can tell because I hear the tinfoil crinkling.

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RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/9/2010 4:27:01 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Thadius, I thought I would say it first...

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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/9/2010 4:29:42 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
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Status: offline 		That is like laying out a salt lick, some pheromones, and a net, while sitting in a comfy hide; it just ain't very sporting.

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/9/2010 4:29:44 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
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From: Central Pennsylvania
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AIG thanks  YOU!  :-)

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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/9/2010 6:39:06 PM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

No you dont..... International law allows the use of lethal force on anyone who is an immenent threat to a county. Secondly Congress also approved the use of Military force against Al Qaida. Since Awlaki is a member of AQ, thats his tough luck.


why would I care about 'international law'?

so if congress approves the use of military force against, say, 'domestic terrorists' you would be ok with the government opening up kill orders on everyone it deemed a domestic terrorist? tough luck, indeed.


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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/9/2010 6:41:48 PM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

and obama is carrying on the bush policy that the entire world is a battlefield in regards to terror, and that hasn't been successfully challenged to date.


nothing new. this goes back to Wilson.


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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/9/2010 8:07:22 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

and obama is carrying on the bush policy that the entire world is a battlefield in regards to terror, and that hasn't been successfully challenged to date.


nothing new. this goes back to Wilson.



No one ... not a single person who claims that this is common US policy ... has provided any proof whatsoever.

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/9/2010 8:09:19 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: politesub53


Actually the answer to your first question is yes. Congress authorised attacks on any member of AQ, during Bush`s tenure.


quote:

Was a specific individual American citizen, who was a member of AQ, targeted with assassination, regardless of where he was, or what he was doing?


If you say yes, please provide a link or reference to that individual, and the circumstances surrounding his death, or the order for his assassination.

Firm


Dont be so silly Firm, a member of AQ is a member of AQ. I could just as easy ask you to provide a link which shows Congress authorised attacks on all members of AQ, unless they were American.


Polite,

Might I be so bold as to suggest that you read the OP's linked article, and even Ron's article, for a more detailed understanding?

Firm

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/9/2010 8:28:35 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

LOL, and he politely lays the bait.... Here comes the herd of conspiracists, I can tell because I hear the tinfoil crinkling.


come on we all know the 19 jihackster conspiracy theory is bullshit.


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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/10/2010 2:12:21 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

No you dont..... International law allows the use of lethal force on anyone who is an immenent threat to a county. Secondly Congress also approved the use of Military force against Al Qaida. Since Awlaki is a member of AQ, thats his tough luck.


why would I care about 'international law'?

so if congress approves the use of military force against, say, 'domestic terrorists' you would be ok with the government opening up kill orders on everyone it deemed a domestic terrorist? tough luck, indeed.



It doesnt matter if you care about international law or not. The fact remains that under it, the US are entitled to act.

As for "Domestic" terrorists, you are deflecting from the issue to try and prove a point. Alwaki isnt in the US, he is out planning the deaths of Americans, so is fair game.

Am I happy about this...you bet I am. This isnt like Gitmo where many "innocents" were held without trial.

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/10/2010 2:15:37 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Polite,

Might I be so bold as to suggest that you read the OP's linked article, and even Ron's article, for a more detailed understanding?

Firm


How will my re reading the OP affect the authorisation handed down by Congress ? Why dont you just stick to the point.

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/10/2010 3:09:43 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Riddle me this Eisenstein,

Are you on the NO FLY list as of 4-10-10?

Same list    as  of 5-10-10?




(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/10/2010 3:49:50 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Riddle me this Eisenstein,

Are you on the NO FLY list as of 4-10-10?

Same list    as  of 5-10-10?




Who is Eisenstein, and what list are you on about ? 

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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen - 4/10/2010 8:18:20 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Polite,

Might I be so bold as to suggest that you read the OP's linked article, and even Ron's article, for a more detailed understanding?

Firm


How will my re reading the OP affect the authorisation handed down by Congress ? Why dont you just stick to the point.


I am sticking to the point.  You seem to be missing the point.

The issue is that while the Bush admin authorized strikes against AQ, without regard to the nationality of the members just after 9/11 (and the Bush admin never claimed the right to simply assassinate American citizens, but rather to simply attack AQ members), they did not specifically target an American for assassination under that authorization.  In fact, that same concept of ignoring the rights of an American citizen was legislated in our court systems, and was held to be illegal (Hamdi vs Rumsfeld 2004).

The Obama administration has now specifically targeted an American for assassination under that authorization.

Potentiality versus reality.  Claiming the right, and expanding on, and exercising the expanded right.

This is said quite well in both articles.  Did you miss it?  You see no difference between claiming something, and acting on those claims?

If I claimed I wanted to be the new Tsar of Russian, it's one thing.  If I go to Russia and fomet a rebellion, recruit an army and attack the government of Russia is an entirely different matter.

If I claimed that some woman who I'd never met should now be my wife, and I should have the right to insert my penis into her at any time, that's one thing. Going to her home, sneaking into her house, and raping her is an entirely different matter.

Here, no less an "authority" than Keith Olbermann agrees with me (video).

Quote "it is a power not even claimed by the Bush/Chaney administration".

What I find particularly enlightening about this is the seeming willful blindness and lack of concern about the issue by many of the same people who complained and protested most viciferiously about the Bush admin's "illegal" use of wiretaps, the "illegal" holdings of both American and non-American citizens, and other such lesser affronts against our Constitutional rights, compared to an assassination order without any due process.

Kudos to Olbermann (who is not known as friendly to Bush or friendly to anyone right of center) and Glenn Greenwald, whose article started this debate (and whose most recent book, "Great American Hypocrites", examines the manipulative electoral tactics used by the GOP and propagated by the establishment press), again, not a particularly right leaning individual.

What is it that you think is equal between the policy under Bush and the policy now under Obama?

Firm


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Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 120
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