What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (Full Version)

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OrpheusAgonistes -> What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 6:22:20 AM)

Apologies if this is going over old ground--I spent half an hour or so with the search feature and couldn't find a previous thread that covered exactly what I want to ask.  I've been thinking lately about traditions and conventions like kneeling, addressing Dominants by titles like Master/Mistress, saying "Yes Sir/Ma'am," and the like.  I have absolutely no problem doing any of these things, but I do wonder what it means to other people out there.  For me, much of the time, it's really just an issue of etiquette and tradition.

Years ago, when I was about 20, I was in what became a highly enjoyable sadomasochistic relationship with a girl roughly my age.  I'd already been part of a "scene" and "served" a couple of women, so I was pretty aware of protocol and procedure.  The first time we ever started to play together, we were at her place.  The scenario  was beginning to kick into full fabulous swing, and I knelt down and called her "Mistress."  At that point, she slapped my face roughly, glared at me, and said "I.  Do.  Not.  Want.  Fucking.  Call.  And.  Response."  The slap was a gift.  It really startled me out of my complacency and, for the first time since I had become involved in "the scene" with its customs and mores, I started to think about what the hell it even meant to me when I called someone by a title or proffered a submissive gesture with my body language.

For me, a title, a gesture, a pose, only has meaning within the context of a dynamic.  There have been relationships where every time I said "Mistress" (or Princess, or, in one particularly eccentric case, Czaress) and every time I've knelt down or averted eye contact it has felt thrilling, sexy, slightly humiliating.    But in general, just following the normal conventions of the lifestyle for the sake of tradition feels like gesture without force or urgency.  Like call and response.  Like an imaginary tea party.  I'm willing to hum the tune I've been taught and play along, just out of politeness, just to keep the game going.

I guess I'm wondering for other submissives (and particularly for masochists who are not terribly submissive, like me) do you feel any innate value in the traditions and etiquette of the lifestyle, or do you agree that they only really have value as part of a vibrant dynamic?  And when there is that dynamic, and things are fab and really clicking, then what do you feel?




jbcurious -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 6:33:30 AM)

Unless someone really has me in the zone... I have a tendency to giggle calling someone Master.  In a relationship, Master is so generic.. I´d rather we come up with our own name that could even be used in public with no one else knowing what it meant to the two of us.




OrpheusAgonistes -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 6:37:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious

Unless someone really has me in the zone... I have a tendency to giggle calling someone Master.  In a relationship, Master is so generic.. I´d rather we come up with our own name that could even be used in public with no one else knowing what it meant to the two of us.


Ha ha yeah.  And if someone gets upset over not being called by the right name, I have a hard time not losing it completely.  It makes me sound like a bit of a smirking jackass to say this, but the sight of someone being offended at not being addressed by the proper, self-proclaimed, title makes my muscles want to convulse with laughter.




nancygirl34652 -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 6:47:26 AM)

i am just the opposite...i love protocol and rules and guidelines and such.....i am older and know mostly lifestylers my age and most have been in the lifestyle for over 20 years...perhaps it is just how the protocol/rituals were back in the day....but i love them...in fact, sometimes when with a brilliant Dominant, engrossed in conversation, i actually get an overwhelming desire to just drop to my knees before Him...lol....that happened to me having dinner at a chinese restaurant once....but i did not act on it....lol...but i bet with every cent i have, if i had told Him, He would have said...do it....and i would have!

Even if it is just a little thing, all the things i do are meant to convey respect and admiration.....and i get great enjoyment showing respect and admiration...there are just so many jerks out there that when i meet a truly admirable Dominant, i wish to please Him by showing my respect for Him and His position....but that's just me!




kanina -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 6:50:47 AM)

i do not use the word master, i do not feel it, in the sense that to me when i read master i think of some mystical, yoga master or something... i know that is pretty commun in the english language but and probably because my first language is portuguese and because in portuguese the word master is not very used, its more a cultural thing then anything else...

but i do use owner with the capital letter, and other protocols and i do enjoy them...




OrpheusAgonistes -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 6:54:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nancygirl34652

i am just the opposite...i love protocol and rules and guidelines and such.....i am older and know mostly lifestylers my age and most have been in the lifestyle for over 20 years...perhaps it is just how the protocol/rituals were back in the day....but i love them...in fact, sometimes when with a brilliant Dominant, engrossed in conversation, i actually get an overwhelming desire to just drop to my knees before Him...lol....that happened to me having dinner at a chinese restaurant once....but i did not act on it....lol...but i bet with every cent i have, if i had told Him, He would have said...do it....and i would have!

Even if it is just a little thing, all the things i do are meant to convey respect and admiration.....and i get great enjoyment showing respect and admiration...there are just so many jerks out there that when i meet a truly admirable Dominant, i wish to please Him by showing my respect for Him and His position....but that's just me!


I'm really interested in this perspective.  It's one that I don't share, but I think it's admirable.

So if I'm reading you right, then in addition to being a way to show respect to people for whom you have respect, the rules and protocols also help you feel more connected and more immersed in a sense of community and tradition?




jbcurious -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 6:55:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrpheusAgonistes



Ha ha yeah.  And if someone gets upset over not being called by the right name, I have a hard time not losing it completely.  It makes me sound like a bit of a smirking jackass to say this, but the sight of someone being offended at not being addressed by the proper, self-proclaimed, title makes my muscles want to convulse with laughter.



We are very bad subbies..[;)]  I have no problem with showing respect... enjoy doing so but I hate something that feels artificial or false.  I don´t want to go through someone elses´s ideas of the motions... I need it to mean something to us.




Aileen1968 -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 6:58:10 AM)

No protocols here. I couldn't be with someone who required them. I call him by his name.




nancygirl34652 -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 7:00:32 AM)

Yes, you put it perfectly....."the rules and protocols also help you feel more connected and more immersed in a sense of community and tradition? " although i would say it is more a sense of tradition than community...the tradition of a certain hierarchy...which i love but i know it is not for some...but i am just talking about me..lol...let me give You an example....i was with a Master who got really lax or stopped caring about being the dominant in the relationship....i would go to Him and say...Master, may i go shopping now?...He would say....Yes, you do not have to ask.......but that was the point...i NEEDED to ask....that is how i was trained...want to do something, ask your Master.....now not in cases of emergency or anything...then i can use my own brain..lol....i just like having to ask permission




UniqueRaven -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 7:32:24 AM)

In the context of a Owner/property relationship, submissive gestures and protocols hold very, very deep meaning for me.

But i don't do them with anyone else (well, not really) outside of a relationship with my Owner. i think it is more out of self-protection than anything else. i am very polite and kind with everyone as much as possible (and feel awful if i'm ever not), and that seems to be all that's ever expected of me.

Honestly i think a lot of the "etiquette" that people used to adhere to so strictly about how subs/slaves act with all Dom/mes/Masters/Mistresses seems to be going away as the years go by. More people are choosing to interact simply as people, with polite behavior, but not high protocol deference to everyone. At least it seems to me, anyway. [:)]




leadership527 -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 7:58:23 AM)

Well, Carol is not at all like you so take this with a grain of salt. But for her, she has no connection with BDSM-land or it's traditions or etiquette. She does the various things she does like wear a collar, leash, kneel, etc. because I tell her to. The only value she ascribes to them is "it pleased the man I love".




OrpheusAgonistes -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 8:08:01 AM)

quote:


Honestly i think a lot of the "etiquette" that people used to adhere to so strictly about how subs/slaves act with all Dom/mes/Masters/Mistresses seems to be going away as the years go by. More people are choosing to interact simply as people, with polite behavior, but not high protocol deference to everyone. At least it seems to me, anyway. [:)]


That's the intuition I have based on my experience as well.  Which is why it's so interesting to hear from people like nancyboy for whom the traditions, in and of themselves, have some meaning.

Ten years ago or so, "the scene" tended to remind me of growing up a high church Protestant--the kneeling, the titles, conversations that felt like litanies.  On a really good night, there would even be somebody attached to a cross.  To some degree I think that's changing, but I'm also much more distant from "the Scene" or "the Lifestyle" or "the Big Whatever" and more attached to particular individuals, so my perspective may be quirked. 




switch2please -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 9:26:16 AM)

'Sir' comes more easily than 'Master', and 'My Lady' comes more easily than 'Mistress'...but I tend to giggle with titles too unless I feel compelled to offer respect and can't do it any other way.




littleone35 -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 9:30:01 AM)

Master does not give me many rules so the ones that he does give me i pay strict attention to. As for the title it is just comfortable to call him Master because that is who he is. Im public or when it is not apropate i call him Matt his rule. It is strange to call him by his given name though.

Matt's littleone




Icarys -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 9:53:08 AM)

My tastes range more in the middle for protocol..At least from my perspective.

Protocol in my view helps to deepen a persons headspace and since I'm looking for ways to facilitate that happening for the good of both of us..It works for me as well..(that's if they are receptive to it of course) For some it's just how they are as they would be for any likes or dislikes. They try it and they like it.

Side note:
It's funny..Over the last year when people spoke up including myself about how things are different in how people interact with one another here..(Present day compared to say 10 years ago) The usual response was things are no different.
(Shrug)




DWCskitten -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 10:57:14 AM)

~Fast Reply~
Master Sir is very big on protocol, and i am learning. So far, i like it. :) It serves to constantly remind me of my place in the scheme of things, and i just "eat it up."

~kitten~




Rochsub2009 -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 10:57:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrpheusAgonistes

Ha ha yeah.  And if someone gets upset over not being called by the right name, I have a hard time not losing it completely.  It makes me sound like a bit of a smirking jackass to say this, but the sight of someone being offended at not being addressed by the proper, self-proclaimed, title makes my muscles want to convulse with laughter.



i agree with you completely on this. 

i have been with high protocol Dommes, low protocol Dommes, and no protocol Dommes.  i find that the protocol is far less important than the chemistry between the Domme and i.  Some ladies just have it.  They don't need titles or protocol to make them feel secure in their dominance.  They know, and i know, that their dominance over me is total and complete.  Protocol has nothing to do with it.

i remember a particular incident with a former Domme.  She was really into rimming.  She loved that more than any other type of sex.  She never tired of having me provide that particular service.  Well, on one particular instance, i was licking her arse, and She commanded me to lick harder.  My focus was on what i was doing, and my tongue was pretty occupied, so it was hard for me to talk effectively.  So i mumbled "okay" the best i could with my tongue immersed deep in her arse.  Well, She pulled away and turned around and smacked me.  She said "Don't you ever disrespect me like that again.  You will say 'yes Ma'am' or 'yes Mistress', not 'okay'! ".  To be honest, i thought that was rather funny.  There i was on my hands and knees licking Her ass, and she felt like i was disrespecting Her.  Does anyone else see the irony in that?  [:D]

Perhaps She didn't understand that it's difficult to talk when your tongue is 3 inches up someone's butt.

Anyway, the whole incident struck me as rather comical.  But in the back of my mind, there was also a part of me that felt that it was also rather pathetic.  It struck me as a bit insecure.  Why get so offended by a small protocol mis-step?  Particularly when the reason for the error was that i was too busy trying to pleasure Her to be able to follow proper protocol. 

Sure, some people are just high protocol.  i get that.  But it can be taken too far at times. 

At times, adhering too strictly to protocol makes a Dom/Domme seem like a caricature, and makes me respect them LESS, rather than more.




Icarys -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 11:02:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DWCskitten

~Fast Reply~
Master Sir is very big on protocol, and i am learning. So far, i like it. :)

~kitten~

I prefer Master Sir BigDaddy MrUniverse You are THEONE ! All one title and no breaks for breathing.




lally2 -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 12:21:17 PM)

i really struggle to say Sir or Master so when i do i notice it and it feels humbling and a little humiliating.  if i have to remember to say it it feels forced and awkward, waited for and that makes it even more difficult for me to say

i know that with the couple of guys who've wished for me to refer to them as Sir or Master it has meant alot when ive actually uttered those titles.

its not that i dont think they deserve them, just that it is that level of humiliation and lowering myself below them that i find hard

i dont happen to see submission as a lowering of self, i simply see it as a form of self expression.  i dont need to be humiliated but it is humiliating to call someone Sir or Master (for me anyway) - it puts me in a place that makes me feel very small and i dont like that very much [&:]




jbcurious -> RE: What do submissive gestures actually mean to you? (4/9/2010 2:29:28 PM)

If it had been me...I would have walloped you for speaking with your mouth full. Lack of protocol I can forgive...bad manners? Never! [:D]




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