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Having An Effect VS Having Control - 4/10/2010 9:56:59 AM

beej

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this is a spin-off from Anadlusite's thread entitled, "How much does headspace/why they want something matter to you?" UniqueRaven and i were getting into a good discussion about affecting a sub's head space and whether or not that is the same as controlling a sub's head space. i'll set a few material questions so that the discussion isn't limited to head space and can extend to protocol or play or whatever else:

1) how do you define influence and how do you define control?
2) what do you think is the nature of control between a Dom and a sub (positively or negatively)?
2) what part do you think control (as you have defined it) should play in a D/s relationship, if any?

ETA: please bring in whatever other definitions or perspectives you need to make your point. i was just attempting to start with some structure, but then i realized my "material questions" may lean toward my opinion, lol. :)

< Message edited by beej -- 4/10/2010 9:58:57 AM >

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RE: Having An Effect VS Having Control - 4/10/2010 10:26:49 AM

beej

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1) i'll borrow what i said in the head space thread. i define control as holding the reins or the wheel on how someone else experiences or perceives an action that i initiated or that i'm involved in, an action that i can affect in some way basically. i define influence as having sway or some weight but not enough majority force to determine an outcome.

2) i think that control is both useful and necessary to a D/s relationship. this is a dynamic that specifically involves one person giving themselves over to another to some extent. i do not think that control is the same as a dictatorship in which the Dom/me seeks to make all of the sub's feelings and opinions the same as his or her own. but where there are choices to be made for the relationship, the Dom must choose this and not that and must attempt to make the sub see things the way that the dominant sees them. i should reemphasize that i am speaking of exercising control to the extent that is serves the relationship and not of attempting to control all of the sub's thoughts and feelings. this is not about creating a Stepford sub.

3) between a Dom/me and a sub, i think it is the dominant's responsibility to control the relationship. a sub has given me himself, his service, and his trust and expects me to take him in an agreed upon direction (insofar as he consented to submitting himself to my vision). in the entirety of this man, there is a lot of raw material that lends itself to any number of purposes or outcomes. any given day in any kind of play, he could have a number of responses or opinions or feelings about what i've done to him. making the relationships purposeful and nurturing, for him and for myself, i think requires that i underline and define what is significant for our relationship and what isn't by pulling the reins on certain of his responses and encouraging others. i consider that control because i chose an opinion and i acted with the intention of making him share my opinion. i likened this to driving a car with my sub as a passenger. insofar as i've chosen a road and i'm switching the gears, i'm in control of the car and of the direction in which we are going, and i consider that a responsibility.

< Message edited by beej -- 4/10/2010 10:28:00 AM >

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RE: Having An Effect VS Having Control - 4/10/2010 10:52:50 AM

leadership527

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1) how do you define influence and how do you define control?
Influence: The power to cause an effect in intangible ways
Control: The power to cause an effect in direct ways
I only believe I control myself. I can make myself do something or not do something. I cannot make Carol or any other human do anything... not even if I hold a gun to their head. I can control the choices that Carol has insofar as those choices relate to me (and given that we're married, pretty much all choices DO relate to me in one way or the other). So I can absolutely say, "Obey or I will remove the collar." I can influence how she values the choices available to her... I can cause her to value the collar so that she does not want to remove it.

2) what do you think is the nature of control between a Dom and a sub (positively or negatively)?
As per above, I do not see myself as having control over Carol. I see myself as having a great deal of influence. If I tell her to get on the elliptical trainer (a thing she hates), it is still her brain that is moving her feet.

2) what part do you think control (as you have defined it) should play in a D/s relationship, if any?
none: see above. Influence on the other hand, pretty much is everything. The more influence I have, the stronger/deeper our D/s dynamic goes. When that influence approaches total (eg: she will do as I say, think as I say, feel as I say, value what I value and devalue what I don't) then I think of it as M/s or (much as I hate associating with this) internal enslavement. At that point she stops being my submissive wife and becomes mine.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
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RE: Having An Effect VS Having Control - 4/10/2010 11:09:09 AM

UniqueRaven

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i'll have time for a longer post later, but wanted to point out that in the other thread we were specifically discussing controlling vs. influencing headspace.

i do think it is possible for a Dom to have physical control over his sub - ask me that the next time i'm tied up in the cage, hee hee!

But headspace - i control my own headspace. He can influence, but never completely control it - and i see expecting him to control it as a mistake.

Ok, will write more later - looking forward to the responses.

ETA: i realize that you are now moving the discussion beyond just headspace. Just wanted to be clear where i was at in the transition from the previous thread to here.

< Message edited by UniqueRaven -- 4/10/2010 11:10:16 AM >

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RE: Having An Effect VS Having Control - 4/10/2010 1:34:02 PM

DesFIP

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He can influence but cannot control my thoughts and feelings. Which means the possibility of fucking up is always there. Because as a human being, I am not totally a known entity. I can't be programmed to have certain responses. He can try to achieve them using what he knows about me but there is always the chance it won't work.

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RE: Having An Effect VS Having Control - 4/10/2010 3:04:12 PM

beej

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Influence: The power to cause an effect in intangible ways
Control: The power to cause an effect in direct ways

i like those definitions. so i thought more about it, and i'll add this into the mix: for myself, i think i see influence as attempting to be persuasive whereas i see control as attempting to mandate something. as DesFIP said, whatever i may attempt may not work out in any case, but for me, the difference in my intention is really important.

as UniqueRaven was saying, we were originally talking about controlling head space which is something more or different than physical control and as some of you feel, not a road to be traveled. she was also pointing out the potential problems with a sub expecting to be controlled. so perhaps i should ask of the subs, what do you think is the end game of physical control within a relationship? i think that subs give over physical control of themselves because ultimately, they desire to be wrapped up in their dominant's will. a sub wants to fulfill that will and as i understand it, they eventually find satisfaction in doing XYZ just because XYZ is the dominant's will. perhaps, UniqueRaven, you are saying that you bring your own self in line with desiring that will and with finding satisfaction in it?

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RE: Having An Effect VS Having Control - 4/11/2010 11:53:45 AM

Frankseas

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Well head space is controlable as well. Try isolation training for that. Leave them tied up, blind folded with ear plugs and ear muffs to block out any sights or sounds. Trust me a few minutes will seem like a hour with no touch or senses working. But of course there must be consent to this for only the strong sub/slave wont freak out!

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RE: Having An Effect VS Having Control - 4/11/2010 12:32:55 PM

UniqueRaven

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i love isolation and sensory deprivation. Need it on some levels even.

Doesn't control my headspace. i can still think about whatever i want, even if it's just "this is no fun."

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RE: Having An Effect VS Having Control - 4/11/2010 12:43:29 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: beej
so i thought more about it, and i'll add this into the mix: for myself, i think i see influence as attempting to be persuasive whereas i see control as attempting to mandate something. as DesFIP said, whatever i may attempt may not work out in any case, but for me, the difference in my intention is really important.

This is exactly the reason I say that "control" is a chimera. I can "mandate" whatever the hell I want. Sure, that may talk about MY head space, but it doesn't have any basis in actuality outside my own head. It may be all hawt and sexy, but it isn't mechanically accurate.

here's something I just culled from my own recent thoughts which bear on this. This is shamelessly stolen from my favorite bit of condensed leadership advice.

"But titles mean little in terms of real power, which is the capacity to influence and inspire."

I think that about sums it up. I have sufficient ability to both influence and inspire Carol such that I could craft an entire vision of M/s in her head and get her to value it. It wasn't a native thought to her. She has no affiliation with the BDSM world. It was entirely implanted by me. THAT, is real power. "Influence" is good enough for Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King, and Ghandi. I think I can work with it too *chuckles*.

ETA: It is only my ability to influence and inspire which turns the mandate in my head into a mandate in her head.

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 4/11/2010 12:44:56 PM >

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Having An Effect VS Having Control - 4/11/2010 3:53:46 PM

Andalusite

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Hmm, I guess I see the difference as relating to intent. Taking a bubblebath, going for a run around the block, doing yoga, things like that are activities I can do to modify my headspace/emotions, and I can to some extent decide to make changes in how I feel about something, or what emotions I'm experiencing. I consider that to be control of my headspace. If a complete stranger or a casual stranger does or says something that inspires a particular feeling, that is influencing my emotions a bit, they had an effect, but it wasn't deliberate control. When my Master knows where my buttons are and what to do to get me to feel the way he wants me to, I see it as deliberate control.

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RE: Having An Effect VS Having Control - 4/11/2010 4:12:44 PM

Malkinius

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Greetoings raven....

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven

i'll have time for a longer post later, but wanted to point out that in the other thread we were specifically discussing controlling vs. influencing headspace.

i do think it is possible for a Dom to have physical control over his sub - ask me that the next time i'm tied up in the cage, hee hee!

But headspace - i control my own headspace. He can influence, but never completely control it - and i see expecting him to control it as a mistake.

Ok, will write more later - looking forward to the responses.

ETA: i realize that you are now moving the discussion beyond just headspace. Just wanted to be clear where i was at in the transition from the previous thread to here.

Sorry....but no. Your headspace can be controlled by another and most if my suppositions about how were just confirmed this weekend by a neuralbiologist. Yes, some of it is still subject to clinical studies but the chain of connection and final results have already been shown to be correct independently.

So, yes, an owner can influence and control how and what their slave thinks and believes.

Be well....

Malkinius

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RE: Having An Effect VS Having Control - 4/11/2010 4:24:27 PM

zephyroftheNorth

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Greetings Master Malkinius,

How fascinating! You and I have had discussions on this before, I would love to talk this over too if you don't mind.

iwyw,

zeph

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RE: Having An Effect VS Having Control - 4/11/2010 5:05:53 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius
So, yes, an owner can influence and control how and what their slave thinks and believes.

Interesting. I wonder if this hinges really on the definition of influence vs. control. I certainly believe that my "influence" of carol approaches totality and so it beings to look an awful lot like control... and perhaps for all practical purposes IS control. But I still don't see them as identical.. just very related.

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~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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