Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (Full Version)

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OrpheusAgonistes -> Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 12:03:39 AM)

This doesn't necessarily reflect well on me, but when I get into political arguments, especially on the internet, I'm really only in it to boost my own ego.  I try to get in a few good quips.  Drop a few names.  Crack a few jokes.  A little erudition.  A little mockery and irony.  Then, after I've struck a few poses, I'm basically done.  Now I do believe in the positions that I argue, and I would like for other people to agree.  But I'm far too jaded to believe that in most online donnybrooks there is any chance in hell of persuasion. 

Occasionally, I'll find myself arguing with someone who knows more than I do about the topic.  This may or may not be apparent to a third party, because I'm a crafty little son of a bitch.  But in these cases, at a certain point, I usually start getting way more interested in sucking all the knowledge and perspective that I can out of my interlocutor.  There's no better way to learn than to debate with somebody who is smarter than you (even if you don't admit it).

Is everybody as cynical as I am?  Threads on message boards invariably turn into scenes that remind me of that old Archers of Loaf lyric "It's always the same people/Pissing the same people off."  So when you argue, are you trying to persuade the people you're arguing against?  Or are you trying to argue some hypothetical audience of "undecideds" who may or may not be out there/reading at all?  Or is everybody like me, all too often just in it to fly the flag of their tribe and get a few shits and giggles?



tazzygirl -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 12:08:16 AM)

I like to debate to learn... and to piss a few off. Some things i know little about, and i have no problem admitting it. Some things i know alot about, and i usually cannot be swayed on those debates. Some things i feel passionately about.. and will debate to the end... guess its the passion that feeds my egos on those threads. Then there are the threads that are so stupid, all they deserve is a quick crack and im done.



OrpheusAgonistes -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 12:13:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I like to debate to learn... and to piss a few off. Some things i know little about, and i have no problem admitting it. Some things i know alot about, and i usually cannot be swayed on those debates. Some things i feel passionately about.. and will debate to the end... guess its the passion that feeds my egos on those threads. Then there are the threads that are so stupid, all they deserve is a quick crack and im done.


That's an interesting point of view.  So beliefs you hold with great conviction you'll debate intensely because you feel that they inherently deserve to be zealously championed even if no one's mind is going to be changed?  I think a real sense of piety to one's ideals is admirable.  These days I only feel that way about books, records, and shoes.  It's been a long time since I was that idealistic about politics.



kdsub -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 12:57:42 AM)

I think you are dead wrong to say that "there is any chance in hell of persuasion" I've changed my mind because of information gained here on cm more than once.

When arguing what is right, relative intelligence means nothing...right is right. Because you are smart or have debating skills does not always give you an advantage or insight into human nature. Many intelligent people here on CM are often wrong and only the complete or whole person, outside of pure intelligence, will realize this.

Motivation varies from person to person as well as from time to time but like most actions of humans has a base in our vanity…so be it.

Butch



OrpheusAgonistes -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 1:07:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think you are dead wrong to say that "there is any chance in hell of persuasion" I've changed my mind because of information gained here on cm more than once.


Intriguing.  Do you happen to remember what the issues were, and what it took to change your mind?  I'm fascinated by the mechanics of persuasion.



Real0ne -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 1:16:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrpheusAgonistes

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think you are dead wrong to say that "there is any chance in hell of persuasion" I've changed my mind because of information gained here on cm more than once.


Intriguing.  Do you happen to remember what the issues were, and what it took to change your mind?  I'm fascinated by the mechanics of persuasion.



normal people change with reason and evidence

agenda driven leftee ritees cant change because their blinders are in the way they are lost

tards either no education or ego educated are lost causes and never stood a chance








OrpheusAgonistes -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 1:24:33 AM)

quote:

normal people change with reason and evidence

agenda driven leftee ritees cant change because their blinders are in the way they are lost

tards either no education or ego educated are lost causes and never stood a chance


I'd argue that rational people are capable of changing their opinion based on properly argued evidence.  Sadly, I'm not sure "rational" and "normal" are synonymous.  It seems as if the tribalism is so deeply ingrained that persuading someone to change their point of view may be more difficult than many people would like to admit.

But you honestly argue with the hope of persuading people of your point of view?



sunshinemiss -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 1:27:26 AM)

I "argue" because I'm trying to understand someone's point of view or because I"m trying to clarify my own.  My way of "arguing" is called discussion.

Best,
sunshine



NorthernGent -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 1:33:02 AM)

A bit of fun really. I'm one of those people with strong opinions and not easily persuaded - but where someone comes up with something persuasive then I'm more than happy to take it on board. So there is an element of knowledge sharing in there - which is natural - that's what we do by nature. Even though you'll have people who will claim to rigidly stand by their ideas (which is a part of us too - we like to give the impression that we have the answers and ideas are bound up in identity which is extremely important to people) - you can see in their posts/thoughts over time that they do in fact change their opinions.



OrpheusAgonistes -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 1:33:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

I "argue" because I'm trying to understand someone's point of view or because I"m trying to clarify my own.  My way of "arguing" is called discussion.

Best,
sunshine



You seem to take issue with the use of the word "argue" which I find odd.  An "argument" properly understood is the presentation of evidence to support premises which, if all true, prove a conclusion.  An actual argument that follows this form is, admittedly, a beautiful and excruciatingly rare thing.  More often than not, it degenerates into something sadder and funnier in short order.

But please don't consider my use of the word "argument" to be condescending.  "Arguments" (properly conducted and realized) are what, for example, Socrates engaged in with his friends and enemies.



jbcurious -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 1:34:58 AM)

I'm quite active on another international forum and enjoy a good debate...all my friends think pretty much the same way I do, so we just sit around agreeing with each other and where's the fun in that?

I love when I get someone who knows more than I do, as I enjoy the opportunity to learn...and if not swayed then I know which areas to study and return better prepared.

I admit that I also love those times when I push my opponent to the edge and manage to get a response that is more personal attack then it is debate...leaving me free to slice and dice with logic and sarcasm...enjoying a good laugh while doing so.



OrpheusAgonistes -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 1:37:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

A bit of fun really. I'm one of those people with strong opinions and not easily persuaded - but where someone comes up with something persuasive then I'm more than happy to take it on board. So there is an element of knowledge sharing in there - which is natural - that's what we do by nature. Even though you'll have people who will claim to rigidly stand by their ideas (which is a part of us too - we like to give the impression that we have the answers and ideas are bound up in identity which is extremely important to people) - you can see in their posts/thoughts over time that they do in fact change their opinions.


Yeah, excellent points.  Particularly the point about identity.  I wonder if people become even more unwilling to change (or admit to changing) their beliefs online, where one's persona can easily become terribly important.



OrpheusAgonistes -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 1:39:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious

I'm quite active on another international forum and enjoy a good debate...all my friends think pretty much the same way I do, so we just sit around agreeing with each other and where's the fun in that?


Yeah, exactly.  I've never understood the urge some people have to surround themselves only with people who have similar ideologies.  There are few things more entertaining, intellectually, than finding a very bright person who disagrees with me vehemently.



sunshinemiss -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 1:42:16 AM)

ahhh OA,
You have me there.  When I think of arguing, I think of yelling and something that can dissintegrate into meanspirited words and fistacuffs.  For me, the word is important.  I have a visceral response to the word "argue".  From what you are talking about, it seems that my discussion and your argue are similar if not the same.  Thank you for clarifying.

And I have one more reason I "argue".  Sometimes it is an exercise in patience for me.  I have more than once been called names or experienced my own nastiness (much to my chagrin).  I try not to lose my cool, but sometimes it happens.  I will on occasion deliberately take a silly thread and make it serious.  I will respond with something against the black and white thinking that is so prevalent on boards like this to practice compassion.

Best,
sunshine



OrpheusAgonistes -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 1:53:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

ahhh OA,
You have me there.  When I think of arguing, I think of yelling and something that can dissintegrate into meanspirited words and fistacuffs.  For me, the word is important.  I have a visceral response to the word "argue".  From what you are talking about, it seems that my discussion and your argue are similar if not the same.  Thank you for clarifying.

Yeah that's what it turns into, all too often.  A legitimate argument, in the true sense of the word, is a rare and beautiful thing.  It's like that old Monty Python sketch "The Argument Clinic."

quote:

And I have one more reason I "argue".  Sometimes it is an exercise in patience for me.  I have more than once been called names or experienced my own nastiness (much to my chagrin).  I try not to lose my cool, but sometimes it happens.  I will on occasion deliberately take a silly thread and make it serious.  I will respond with something against the black and white thinking that is so prevalent on boards like this to practice compassion.
Best,
sunshine


I've heard of taking serious threads online and injecting a bit of silliness.  That's something I may have even done myself.  But I'm not really familiar with flipping the script and going the other direction.  Interesting.  I'd like to see that in action--let me know the next time you do it, ha ha.



sunshinemiss -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 2:02:03 AM)

... or you could join my fan club and follow me around (fondlegropes optional of course)



Real0ne -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 2:06:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrpheusAgonistes

quote:

normal people change with reason and evidence

agenda driven leftee ritees cant change because their blinders are in the way they are lost

tards either no education or ego educated are lost causes and never stood a chance


I'd argue that rational people are capable of changing their opinion based on properly argued evidence.  Sadly, I'm not sure "rational" and "normal" are synonymous.  It seems as if the tribalism is so deeply ingrained that persuading someone to change their point of view may be more difficult than many people would like to admit.

But you honestly argue with the hope of persuading people of your point of view?



Not everything in this world is POV.

I would agree with rational and reasonable and a host of other additives.  Rational stand alone leads to sophistry an all to often practiced on these boards.



sunshinemiss -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 2:21:54 AM)

OA, the psychology of persuasion is closely connected with emotion rather than logic. That might be the first place to start. Just a thought.



wittynamehere -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 2:26:05 AM)

"Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade?"

For me, mostly to learn and help others learn, but occasionally also with a competitive edge I guess.



pahunkboy -> RE: Why do you argue? To win? To learn? To persuade? Just for fun? (4/11/2010 3:11:06 AM)

Argue?

We are nothing but love and serenity here.  LOL.

The question then becomes how to evolve.  Some find that out- others take abit longer. If the web is not fun it is work- and I do not work for free. So while I have some deep felt views- I try to round it out with softer fare.

Even your best house guest needs to go home after too many months on your couch.

..and so it goes with CM.  



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