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RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/13/2010 10:27:01 PM

variation30

Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Anyone who claims that supply-side economics works is ignorant of economics.

do you think supply-side = trickle down reaganomics?

or are you arguing against Say's Law (go ahead, wikipedia it, I'm not looking)? if you are arguing with the latter, I would be more than happy to clear up your misconceptions.

_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

(in reply to Brain)

Post #: 21

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/13/2010 10:38:27 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

By the way your example was flawed from the get go....the OP is about the gap growing...you put forth an example,1st man making 10,000...raise to 15,000.....second man making 20,000....raise to 30,000....do you see that this is not a true example of the income gap growing.
Start with a flawed example ...make a flawed argument...and than tell another poster how you can clear up their misconceptions......fucking priceless

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 22

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/13/2010 10:39:34 PM

Silence8

Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Anyone who claims that supply-side economics works is ignorant of economics.

do you think supply-side = trickle down reaganomics?

or are you arguing against Say's Law (go ahead, wikipedia it, I'm not looking)? if you are arguing with the latter, I would be more than happy to clear up your misconceptions.

Say's Law is the economic version of foot fetishism. No matter how hard economists resist... they... just... can't... 'shake it'.

(in reply to variation30)

Post #: 23

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/13/2010 10:44:51 PM

variation30

Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

You guys don't seem to like tripple down econimics, but I have never seen tripple up to work either. Are the poor going to start putting money into the economy ?

production and savings are necessary to create wealth.

quote:

Unless of course due to inflation my 15,000 isn't worth what my 10,000

I thought about including 'all things being equal' but I didn't think anyone would miss the point I was making. I suppose I'll have to engage in more hand-holding int he future.

quote:

Do you just assume people are stupid enough to buy your bullshit

no, I don't think that at all.

but back to my original point - the increase in income inequality in itself is not a bad thing, despite the Pavlovian reactions people have.

are there other unrelated variables which can mean that a small increase in wages is actually a loss in wages, certainly. but as I just said, they are unrelated to income equality. inflation is certainly a problem, but is a problem of increasing the money supply (which was increased by quite a bit in the past few years), not a problem of income inequality.

there are other problems, too. the increase in unemployment is a problem, but what conditions result in this. I would point to high minimum wage, high payroll taxes,laws that threaten firms with lawsuits should the employee be fired, laws that established myriad conditions for hiring beyond the market-based conditions that matter, unemployment subsidies, the high cost of business start-ups in the form of taxes and mandates, mandated benefits employers must give out, withholding taxes, child labor laws, social security/income taxes that together devour nearly half of contract income, labor union laws that permit unions to keep out workers who would love a chance to offer their services for less. I would not point to 'the rich getting richer' as the root of the problem.

and as someone previously mentioned the prison populations, well...the prosecution of victimless crimes never help an economy.

_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

(in reply to servantforuse)

Post #: 24

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/13/2010 10:50:20 PM

variation30

Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

By the way your example was flawed from the get go....the OP is about the gap growing...you put forth an example,1st man making 10,000...raise to 15,000.....second man making 20,000....raise to 30,000....do you see that this is not a true example of the income gap growing.
Start with a flawed example ...make a flawed argument...and than tell another poster how you can clear up their misconceptions......fucking priceless

I don't know how you possibly misconstrued my point. perhaps I should write it in crayon next time.

yes, one person gaining 5k and another gaining 10k is an increase in income inequality. yes. the principles are identical and I think addressing the principles behind an idea and following the logic of the conclusion is the best course to take.

as I have said, an increase in an income gap does not have an innately 'good' or 'bad' connotation on an economy's prosperity.

_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 25

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/13/2010 10:53:47 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

Holy shit guy...why don't we just back everything up .Erase every advance the working man has fought for in the last 100 years.You are joking or quite frankly you are delusional.
high minumum wage....lol
child labor laws
unemployment subsidies

is it a coincidence that every one of the issues you would have addressed would benifit the rich...and fall onto the less well off?
Do me a favor...don't ever suggest hand-holding where I am concerned again....my skin would crawl being in the same room with the likes of you.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to variation30)

Post #: 26

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/13/2010 10:56:19 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

By the way your example was flawed from the get go....the OP is about the gap growing...you put forth an example,1st man making 10,000...raise to 15,000.....second man making 20,000....raise to 30,000....do you see that this is not a true example of the income gap growing.
Start with a flawed example ...make a flawed argument...and than tell another poster how you can clear up their misconceptions......fucking priceless

I don't know how you possibly misconstrued my point. perhaps I should write it in crayon next time.

yes, one person gaining 5k and another gaining 10k is an increase in income inequality. yes. the principles are identical and I think addressing the principles behind an idea and following the logic of the conclusion is the best course to take.

as I have said, an increase in an income gap does not have an innately 'good' or 'bad' connotation on an economy's prosperity.

Are you dense...at the start of your example man b makes twice as much as man a....at the end of your example man b still makes twice what man a makes.How does that address in any way shape or form the issue of the income gap GROWING!!!!!!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to variation30)

Post #: 27

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/13/2010 11:12:01 PM

Silence8

Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

as I have said, an increase in an income gap does not have an innately 'good' or 'bad' connotation on an economy's prosperity.

Except it apparently does. Look at America, the last 20 years. That's the whole point.

(in reply to variation30)

Post #: 28

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/13/2010 11:28:59 PM

variation30

Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Holy shit guy...why don't we just back everything up .Erase every advance the working man has fought for in the last 100 years.You are joking or quite frankly you are delusional.
high minumum wage....lol
child labor laws
unemployment subsidies

is it a coincidence that every one of the issues you would have addressed would benifit the rich...and fall onto the less well off?
Do me a favor...don't ever suggest hand-holding where I am concerned again....my skin would crawl being in the same room with the likes of you.

again, it appears you have a difficult time reading.

"high minumum wage....lol
child labor laws
unemployment subsidies"

um...are you denying that the things I listed are factors that will increase unemployment. perhaps your emotions took control of you and you missed the fact that my list was a list of things that inhibit the creation of new jobs...it had nothing to do with whether or not they 'benefited the rich'. as far as the three things you mentioned as being 'advances for the working man', I would disagree with that as well. in the best case scenarios, they are 'baptist and bootlegger' issues (I would love if you would contest me on child labor restrictions as it's always fun to educate people on the history of child labor laws).

if you disagree that any of the things I mentioned increase the difficulties of finding employment, I would be happy to help you.

quote:

Do me a favor...don't ever suggest hand-holding where I am concerned again....my skin would crawl being in the same room with the likes of you

don't worry, odds are I would not frequent any of the places you would go.

quote:

Are you dense...at the start of your example man b makes twice as much as man a....at the end of your example man b still makes twice what man a makes.How does that address in any way shape or form the issue of the income gap GROWING!!!!!

I realize this. the gap between their income in absolute terms grew, would you say that the poorer person is worse off because of the increase in their gap (he obviously isn't)? unfortunately you are not addressing the issue so I will have to walk through the rest of my point by myself.

the next example would've been of someone's wealth multiplying upwards 20k to 60k and asking if the person at 15k is worse off (again, he isn't).

hopefully there would be no need to take these examples further as the idea of an inequality in income having a universally negative connotation would have been done away with.

quote:

Except it apparently does. Look at America, the last 20 years. That's the whole point

perhaps there are more factors that the 'rich getting richer'.

but the first contention I would make is that the article stated this has been happening since the late 70's, how would you account for the increase in the income gap becoming larger during the relatively prosperous 80's and 90's?

< Message edited by variation30 -- 4/13/2010 11:30:45 PM >

_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 29

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/14/2010 1:21:19 AM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

Look, in the good years my boss made in my estimation eight times what I made. But there was a reason, he was the responsible party and he had to deal with all of the problems.

Others make more simply because they have enough money to buy a business. Money begets money. And people who don't produce and simply use money to make money will fall, it is a matter of simple math.

I could fix all this but it would require that everyone follow my instructions precisely. Fat chance. I like to dream but usually I go to sleep first.

Look, I have said it before, but one last time. For the record, greed is an addiction, therefore as such is never satisfied. Therefore the rich will not stop until the income disparity is infinity versus zero. It is irrational, and they are irrational.

Once you understand that, the rest just falls into place.

T

(in reply to variation30)

Post #: 30

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/14/2010 5:06:59 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline

I'm going to start out by saying I am ignorant of economics. I am not ignorant of life.

What I do not understand is why a government budget wouldn't work similar to my household budget? If I am not earning enough money I have two choices, to figure out how to earn more and to cut back on things I don't really need. I'd be smart to do both.

There is SO much waste in government spending. But we don't hear about the little things, we only hear about the big things. In my own finances I cut out going to the nail salon. If I were The Government I'd say well that's just $40 a month so it's not a big deal. I'd shop smarter and use coupons. If I were The Government I'd say well a 10-cent coupon only saves 10 cents so why bother clipping the coupon. If I add up all the little things I can do to cut expenses I can save a lot of money. I don't see The Government doing this.

Is Brain concerned about how much money The (United States, not Canadian) Government has available or is he concerned that some folks have a whole lot more money than other folks? Jesus said "the poor will be with you always" and that's a pretty easy prediction. Some folks are rich because of luck and some are rich because of how they used their time and talents. People are poor for the same reasons so in this they are equal. I don't agree in redistribution of wealth at all. I do agree that there should not be one single person in the United States who goes hungry, goes without a roof over their heads or goes without an opportunity and the tools to care for themselves.

One of the most true things I have ever heard is "For that which is truly important, time and money will be found." If one looks at where time and money is being spent, then you will see what is truly important to that person, that business, that government, that society.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

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(in reply to Brain)

Post #: 31

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/14/2010 7:08:17 AM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Go ahead and make your millions but pay your fair share of taxes. Do you also think it's not bad that Warren Buffett's secretary pays a higher percentage of taxes on her income than he does on his income?

And what's the fair share of taxes.

How much taxes do you pay?

Warren Buffet gets like 13 percent off his taxes after he maxs out social security for one. So that is a huge difference, but that doesn't bother me, as he doesn't qualify for more benefits than his proportional share he paid in. So, whatever, SS stops after you pay in on income of 110K I believe or thereabout, but he won't be drawing the majority of his income from it either.

Should he have to pay 13 percent of a billion, every year, even though it serves no benefit for the security of his retirement as that is the point of it, to force you to have some money for retirement.

There may be other tax loopholes and whatnot, he uses, but that's why there should simply be a national sales tax only, then you don't need to worry about my income, or buffets, or anyone elses.

(in reply to Brain)

Post #: 32

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/14/2010 10:41:32 PM

Silence8

Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Look, I have said it before, but one last time. For the record, greed is an addiction, therefore as such is never satisfied. Therefore the rich will not stop until the income disparity is infinity versus zero. It is irrational, and they are irrational.

Yes, to a point, but reducing everything to a psychological problem misses the systemic features that contribute to fraud and excess, precisely those features that we, as people ostensibly represented by governing bodies, can change.

The financial crisis wasn't just an outburst of greed. It resulted from very real, non-psychological, concrete pieces of legislation that made so-called greed in some sense the only mode of operation.

< Message edited by Silence8 -- 4/14/2010 10:42:22 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 33

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/15/2010 4:06:47 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

or are you arguing against Say's Law

If he isn't, I will.

Supply creates its own demand is wishful thinking.

Many a small business has gone under thinking just because it opens, customers will come.

More accurately, supply creates an inventory that opportunity cost will force the seller to dump, profitably or not.

(in reply to variation30)

Post #: 34

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/15/2010 1:46:06 PM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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I don't know how you possibly misconstrued my point. perhaps I should write it in crayon next time.

I do not believe that writting gibberish in crayon would make it any more intelligible.

yes, one person gaining 5k and another gaining 10k is an increase in income inequality. yes. the principles are identical and I think addressing the principles behind an idea and following the logic of the conclusion is the best course to take.

as I have said, an increase in an income gap does not have an innately 'good' or 'bad' connotation on an economy's prosperity.

So if a person who is making 5000 a year begins to make 10,000 they will starve to death half as fast.
Your clear thinking and concise understanding of economics is in question here.

(in reply to variation30)

Post #: 35

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/15/2010 4:06:40 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

Perspective.

Perspective lets you see that middle class is really about a million a year, and that the middle class is less populous than before, not because there are less of them. The numbers have changed. The scale has changed.

First thing to do to understand it is to take the real numbers out, ironically. This way - Henry Ford paid a dollar a day. How many dollars a day did he make ?

Now Ford pays X dollars a day, how much does the CEO make ? I don't want the dollar amount, but the ratio. In the words of a math teacher "reduce your answer to the least common denominator". That is not a pun, it is meant only in the mathematical sense.

T

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 36

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/15/2010 11:27:12 PM

MrRodgers

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Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

These posts are so superficial sometimes as to be funny if they weren't so true and sad.

Income gap increase is a 30 year phenomenon and yes...it makes a big difference and is a very bad thing.

Income is as follows: (2008)

Top 1% of US earners...earned 22% of all income. (a record high)
paid...20% of all federal income taxes. (a record low)

ALL 99% of the rest of US earners...earned 78% of all income. (a record low)
paid...80% of all federal income taxes (a record high)

The true measure of how economy serves society is ownership of wealth. This includes, real estate, cash, stocks, bonds and any other kind of asset.

The Top 5%...own 85% of the wealth and pay approx. 40% of all federal taxes.

ALL 95% of the rest of us...own 15% of the wealth and pay approx. 60% of all federal taxes.

Investors (buying and selling...usually paper) can earn $100,000 in a year and take home $85,000.

Labor can earn $100,000 in a year yet take home only $65,000. Why ? Now, multiply that buy 100's.

The absolute easiest way to make money in capitalism is with money.

However demand, supply and yes both Say's law and the Laffer curve both make me laugh...is not enough.

Demand is fairly constant and supply...reactionary. What is ultimately necessary is fulfillment...which takes money a certain minimum wealth.

Wealth is labor. Labor is capital, without labor...you have no capital.

Everything is about greed, money and comparing incomes is merely looking at the edges of society's values. For all of society's values...look at the result and you see the undoing of that great productive, instructive world power and ultimately that great experiment in freedom, turned into a slow burning Rome.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 4/15/2010 11:32:25 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 37

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/16/2010 1:57:29 AM

variation30

Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

or are you arguing against Say's Law

If he isn't, I will.

Supply creates its own demand is wishful thinking.

Many a small business has gone under thinking just because it opens, customers will come.

More accurately, supply creates an inventory that opportunity cost will force the seller to dump, profitably or not.

"Supply creates its own demand is wishful thinking." is more Ricardo and Mill.

someone might want to brush up a bit on Say's Law.

_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 38

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/16/2010 3:54:40 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

Is Brain concerned about how much money The (United States, not Canadian) Government has available or is he concerned that some folks have a whole lot more money than other folks?

I would go with the latter and himself in particular. It's a shame that he doesn't use all the energy he wastes bashing the US on earning a living. He'd be among the rich by now. Or he could turn the energy towards making his own country a better place to live, but that doesn't seem to be an interest of his either. I would ask him if he gets paid by the link, but he doesn't come back and answer most of the questions in his threads. More of a hit and run type poster.

_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 39

RE: Income Gap Grows During Recession - 4/16/2010 6:22:33 AM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

or are you arguing against Say's Law

If he isn't, I will.

Supply creates its own demand is wishful thinking.

Many a small business has gone under thinking just because it opens, customers will come.

More accurately, supply creates an inventory that opportunity cost will force the seller to dump, profitably or not.

"Supply creates its own demand is wishful thinking." is more Ricardo and Mill.

someone might want to brush up a bit on Say's Law.

Someone else might want to brush up on what actually works--from data, not snippets gleaned from what you remember of abstract principles from Econ class.

(in reply to variation30)

Post #: 40

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